My first $10/20 escapade

[FishyWhale]

...showed a profit of $566 in 5 hours which is quite unreal for someone who is used to $3/6. Needless to say I´m very happy about it, especially since I´m just recovering from a $3/6 losing streak which has reduced my bankroll rather severely.

Funny thing is, the $10/20 game where I play (just like $10/20 stud) looks uber-beatable, just one or two other players who played about as tight as I do. Post flop the loosies play of course somewhat better than $3/6 players, but you can bluff and semi-bluff more successfully, and that leaves you with more options to win a pot compared to $3/6 (and speaking of options, you can also check-raise better which isn´t unimportant either). The only problem I have - and there really is just that one problem - is that of my bankroll, but I have some reserves, so even that is manageable. So who knows, perhaps my regular game in the near future wont be $3/6 but $10/20 where, judging by the skill level of my opponents, I should easily be able to make 1 bb/h which would be three times as much compared to what I would earn in stupid student´s job such as that of a call center agent or some other stupid hack which I have absolutely no desire of doing.

Anyway, a few hands for discussion.

1) K9o big blind, free play, 5-way.

Flop: Jc8c4h. Checked through.
Turn: Ts. SB bets. SB is pretty loose preflop and will bet a lot of stuff postflop. I hesitate a short time, perhaps saying something like "a moment please", and then decide to raise. Comments?

2) Qc8c on the button, three callers to my, I call (I would have folded Q7s without hesitation), SB call, BB check, 6-way.

Flop: Q74c (rainbow). Checked to me, I bet three callers.
Turn: 3, rainbow complete. Old man (rather loose-passive, but not completely untricky) on my right bets, I think a little bit, wondering why, in case he has got the straight, isn´t check-raising me, but I fold with almost 6-to-1 pot odds. Comments on my preflop call and my turn fold?

[Ulysses]

Nice hit. If you feel confident playing against these lineups, good for you. Only thing I'd caution you to be aware of is that at this limit you're much more likely to run into 1 or 2 really skilled players at the table, so just be aware of who those are. The biggest difference I've found between 6-12 and 15-30 is that the range of playing styles (ie: most passive to most aggressive, most loose to most tight) is much wider at 15-30, so you often need to be able narrow down your opponents' holdings from a much wider range of possibilities than at lower limits.

As for the hands:

Hand 1: I would have bet the turn, but once someone beats me to it I probably fold. I like this move against a stronger player, not against a loose SB who will call you down with a pair.

Hand 2: Preflop call is fine. Turn fold is fine. Old man may have Qcrap suited, but that's all you have too and you lose to 34s, 56s, Q9+, Q3s, so I'd fold as well in this situation.

[FishyWhale]

Hand 1: I would have bet the turn, but once someone beats me to it I probably fold. I like this move against a stronger player, not against a loose SB who will call you down with a pair.

Well, his looseness is more confined to preflop, postflop he doesn´t play that badly (even though he is still too lose) and - what´s most important - he is a player who would try to take the pot on turn with very little. I also have a tight image which he is aware of, so knowing that, would you still "probably fold"?

[gaylord focker]

As far as hand one, I wouldnt make this play unless I had a very good read on the bettor, you have no hand and no draw. Hand two, dont let anyone convince you that Qc8c should be played in any position except for in the blinds. Its a trash hand that belongs in the muck.

[Clarkmeister]

Qc8c is quite playable in that spot. Its really not that close provided you are better postflop than your opponents. And lets face it. If you aren't better postflop than your opponents, you have far more serious problems to deal with than 'should I limp behind 3 limpers on the button with Q8s'.

FWIW, HPFAP21 recommends limping with even Q5s on the button with many poor playing limpers to you.

[Ed Miller]

In his article in CardPlayer this week, Mason talks about a hand where he called on the button with J7s. Certainly Q8s is a better hand than J7s...

[gaylord focker]

Everybody assumes that they play way better than thier oppenents post flop. If you are calling with Qc8c, you dont think you are going to be in there with the worst hand 90 percent of the time? Convincing yourself that you have positive EV with this hand in any position is just a joke, unless you are a world class player. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool, or does not understand the game.

[Ed Miller]

Convincing yourself that you have positive EV with this hand in any position is just a joke, unless you are a world class player. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool, or does not understand the game.

I'm not sure I've ever played Q8s outside the blinds in my brief poker career. But I certainly wouldn't be calling someone like Clarkmeister a fool because he has...

Furthermore, in addition to your inappropriate invective, I think you are mistaken. There are almost certainly situations where Q8s is playable outside the blinds. An obvious example is when everyone folds you to you on the button and the blinds will fold anything but the most premium hands to a raise.

[Ulysses]

what´s most important - he is a player who would try to take the pot on turn with very little. I also have a tight image which he is aware of, so knowing that, would you still "probably fold"?

Well, that makes it closer. Really depends on the read. What might he have here? Absolutely nothing, you're fine. 4 or 8, you're fine, he probably won't call. A Ten, trouble, he'll probably call you down. A nine, perfect, goldmine if he catches the Queen!

Thinking it through, the only thing you have to worry about besides him is if someone happened to be after you w/ Q9s, 79s, or T8s. That's more than likely not the case, so based on your read, it was perhaps a very nice play.

I've definitely made moves in much more marginal situations than this based purely on a good read.

[Ulysses]

As far as hand one, I wouldnt make this play unless I had a very good read on the bettor, you have no hand and no draw.

I agree on needing a very good read to make this play, but it's important to note that he did pick up an open-ended straight draw on the turn, and on the top side his draw is to the nuts.

Hand two, dont let anyone convince you that Qc8c should be played in any position except for in the blinds. Its a trash hand that belongs in the muck.

Three limpers to me on the button w/ Q8s in a loose-passive game? I'll play that every time in that situation.

[Clarkmeister]

"Everybody assumes that they play way better than thier oppenents post flop."

The ones who are wrong quickly go broke.


"If you are calling with Qc8c, you dont think you are going to be in there with the worst hand 90 percent of the time?"

Please define "worst hand". I am very likely to be better than both blinds, and the mere fact that everyone limped lets me know that they don't exactly have anything to write home about. I think you dramatically underestimate the combination of the button + a reasonable holding. Limping here with 56s is also reasonable, and technically it will be the worst hand (based on showdown value) 90+% of the time. That doesn't mean its -EV.

"Convincing yourself that you have positive EV with this hand in any position is just a joke, unless you are a world class player. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool, or does not understand the game. "

Well, I'm not a WCP, but Sklansky is, and they recommend to their readers to play down to Q5s in similar spots. And they err towards the cautious side with their preflop advice to readers. As an example, Sklansky has been noted as saying that while AJo UTG is marginally profitable, he recommends his students muck it. Since he doesn't recommend mucking Q5s with 4 or 5 limpers to you on the button, one can safely assume that he thinks it is more than marginally profitable.

You sound like the Vegas locals who scorn reasonable strategy just because they "don't play junk". That kind of close minded attitude isn't going to help your game. Why are you so hostile about this subject?

[David Steele]

A very big factor in deciding which game to play is the rake.
It real isnt worth playing 3-6 if there is something somewhat bigger like 6-12, but I assume you have nothing except the 10-20 to go to.

D.

[tiger]

Recently I had a similar experience myself. I m from Dallas and go down to Bossier city now and then. The poker tables there are limited. Tired of wiating for $4/8 holdem, I sat at 10/20. After losing a couple of good hands, I started playing tight. And lo, to my surprise, I was up $2300 in 8 hours. Ofcourse, I had a good run of cards too. That gave me ample opportunity to semi-bluff and bluff. Although I had pocket aces 3 times that night, didn;t make much money with them. AK seemed to be the workhorse. Counting back, I could tell that of the 2300, atleast 1500 would be due to AK, (which I had atleast 15 times that night). I have seen people play any Ace in their hand. I had the discipline to stick to AK or AQsuited(maybe AJ,AT suited in late positions), and it worked miracles. I might have thrown a few winning hands playing that tight, but I was never a loser at showdown. At the showdown as if by magic I always had the best kicker, and lot of fish respected my raises from then...

This is my first time plaing 10/20.. I am sure this is not normal, and would seek advise from the experienced.. boy am i itching to go back there..

-Tiger

[FishyWhale]

1) Everyone folded back to the bettor who showed me a ten for a pair of tens before folding.

2) After I folded, only one other player called, another 3 came down on river, old man bet, and won without showdown.

[FishyWhale]

I think you are being to simplistic. While Q7s is trash and would have gone to the muck quickly, Q8s does a lot better because of its gut-shot potential. I also don´t like the generalizations you make in this and your other post, that´s too much a) emotional and b) black-and-white thinking which I can´t take seriously.

[Ulysses]

While Q7s is trash and would have gone to the muck quickly, Q8s does a lot better because of its gut-shot potential.

I think you're a little too black-and-white here yourself. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

On the button in the same situation against most lineups, I'll play Q7s as well. I don't have a firm cutoff like "Play Q8s on the button against 3 limpers, muck Q7s." Instead, I base my decision on who the limpers are, who's in the blind, etc. Some lineups I'll play Q6s in this situation while others I'll muck Q9s.

[FishyWhale]

Well, yes, the usual "it depends" stuff is also correct in this instance /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif , but you have got to draw the (personal) line somewhere - otherwise it´s "Oh, Q7s is not much worse than Q8s, so I´ll play it, meaning that I´ll play Qxs too, and why not J7s, come to think of it T6s is not much worse either..." - and I draw it at Q8s.

[AceHigh]

I agree with Clarkmeister. Except I don't think you need to be able to play better than you opponents, I think you have to be able to play this hand well.

[Vehn]

Tiger I hope you realize that that is an extremely good run of starting cards. For a 4-hour session I usually average something like 3-4 pairs TT and up, 3-4 AQ/AK. Some math nut probably knows the real probabilities.

[tiger]

vehn

I realize that, and I will be careful not to get carried on by this winning on my next trip. But this one trip has blown my standard deviation to a healthy number.
all in all, the games in bossier city are very passive and erring on the loose side. there are few tight players, and if you can spot them, and punish their limps, i think it works out good. There is a definite extra 20-30 dollars in every pot that shouldnt be there..

[Mangatang]

tiger,

Where are you playing in Bossier? I thought the only poker in town was at the Hollywood Casino in Shreveport. Just want to know if there is somewhere else to play, because you're right, the waiting list can be quite long. Later.

[tiger]

Yep, I am talking about the Hollywood, and typically theres short list on 10/20 while theres like 25 names on list for 4/8 all the time