SnG early starting hand strategy

[jonnytone]

I've recently been playing SnG tournaments very often and reading a lot of articles/posts on the subject. It seems that most of the SnG strategy I read says to play tight early, perhaps as long as the first 5 rounds. Some say to only play AA, KK, QQ and AK (if you don't flop a pair get out). And once you get into the higher rounds start to loosen up. The reason to support this strategy, is that early in SnG's there is a lot of players that like to gamble and will call with marginal hands, so you should wait till you have a monster starting hand to cut the risk of these "gamblers" drawing out on you and cutting your stack. Then when the blinds are raised you should have a tight table presence and be able to steal more blinds.

Unfortunately, I've found that when playing this way, unless you catch at least one playable hand (by the tightest standards listed) it holds up and you win a lot of chips by the time the bigger blinds arrive you will be so severely chip deprived that the larger loose playing stacks won't hesitate to call your t800-t1000 all-in bet. At this time it's a toss up at best because you were semi-bluffing to steal the blinds.

Does anyone have any better early starting hand strategy for SnG style tournaments. How can improve this part of my game so that I don't end up the short stack by the time it's the bubble and possible to steal the blinds.

Thanks for reading my post and your comments.

[Bigwig]

It's really too hard to give a simple answer. I suggest searching for Aleo's guide on how to beat the $10+1s. Tightening up Sklansky's limit hand rankings isn't bad either. Whoever told you to play only AA, KK, QQ, and AK in the early rounds is a skilless dope.

[The Yugoslavian]

My most favorite hands in levels 1-3 are: 88,99,TT,JJ,QQ,KK,AA,AK,AQ,KQ.

My most favorite hands after level 3 are: any two.

Yugoslav

[Isura]

nice.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

My most favorite hands after level 3 are: any two.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hero is Button with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif
4 folds,, Hero POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSHes! /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[sirdeej2]

Seems like I always have the same problem as well. I lose one small-medium pot early on and then I have no choice but to go all in with the first semi-playable hand I see in later rounds. It'll be interesting to see what people say.

[RedBean]

[ QUOTE ]
I've recently been playing SnG tournaments very often and reading a lot of articles/posts on the subject. It seems that most of the SnG strategy I read says to play tight early, perhaps as long as the first 5 rounds. Some say to only play AA, KK, QQ and AK (if you don't flop a pair get out)......Unfortunately, I've found that when playing this way, unless you catch at least one playable hand (by the tightest standards listed) it holds up and you win a lot of chips by the time the bigger blinds arrive you will be so severely chip deprived that the larger loose playing stacks won't hesitate to call your t800-t1000 all-in bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know exactly what your asking here, and went through the same confusion in my early SNG learning process. I often got the feeling that by playing by these guidelines I was passing up opportunities to build chips, and far too often not pulling premiums early and going into level 4 on the small side of chips.

The way I see it, Aleo's guide, and the advice given elsewhere to play this ultra tight is a good general guide to beginners in SNG, or a foundation of emphasis on the fact that you want to play tighter early and looser later. I also view it as a "just give these guidelines to a complete donk and he'll be ok" guideline, but not as the definitive guide on perfect SNG play, especially considering the vast array of styles.

Add to that, the ultra tight early level play puts alot of emphasis on bubble play earlier that I felt comfortable, and while it may suffice for those in these parts who are masters on the bubble, a little breathing room never hurt anyone.

What I have done is expand the starting requirements a bit for myself in the early rounds, while still focusing on not getting hurt early, and I often find myself going into level 4+ with a higher average chip size, and on the occasions I whiff on hand and go in ~500 chips it is relatively the same as missing on premiums and going in ~600 in chips.

Playing styles vary more so that arseholes or opinions, in that most people have even more than one, and of course, you'll probably get 53 different viewpoints from 47 different people in this thread, but for what it's worth, for my style, in addition to the ultra-tight requirements above, I expand to playing BIG CARDS suited (AQs, AJs, KQs, ATs) in LP for raises, although I don't like limping them early fo rthe mere fact that I don't like folding to LP raisers, and I won't hesitate to play suited broadway, small suited connectors, small pairs, and Ax suited in LP if enough folks limp in ahead to make it worth it. I don't LAG it up by any means, but I do come off the porch a little more so than just with premiums and take a few shots at getting in a better chip position without putting my neck at risk.

The key thing in playing these early and loosening up from the ultra-tight requirements is knowing when to get the hell out of dodge, and not getting hurt early. You definately don't want to get smacked in level 2 with AJs being dominated by AQ, only to then leave never knowing if AA was right aroudn the bend in level 3, or if this was your turn to win 6 straight coinflips come bubble time.

I guess what it all boils down to is, loosen up from the ultra tight requirements only when you feel your style can warrant it, and your comfortable with it, maybe even adding a few groups to the arsenal at a time, not all at once and turning into a maniac, and you may find yourself more often than not sitting a little more comfortable come crunch time than usual by only sitting on premiums or nothing.

Of course, in the entire scope of things, none of it matters come level 6 when you push 85o into the guy who is going fold 300 blind with QJ because he is worried that his perception you hold an Ace has him beat.

If I were to have a monkey, my uncle, or my wife play SNGs, I would give them Aleo's guide and tell them to follow it verbatim, but for myself, once comfortable, I like to take a few small stabs at the chance at getting a safer cushion come crunch time.

[Bigwig]

A lot depends on the limit you're playing, as well.

Also--something I've said 1000 times on this board, and I'll say it again.

If you limp on the button with QTs after a couple of limpers in front, and can't get away from a Q84 rainbow flop, don't play hands like QTs.

[Geordie Ramone]

[ QUOTE ]
My most favorite hands in levels 1-3 are: 88,99,TT,JJ,QQ,KK,AA,AK,AQ,KQ.

My most favorite hands after level 3 are: any two.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Blimey when did you turn into the loosey goosey. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif I thought folding was sublime. I may have to take your place as the resident fold pre flop policeman

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My most favorite hands in levels 1-3 are: 88,99,TT,JJ,QQ,KK,AA,AK,AQ,KQ.

My most favorite hands after level 3 are: any two.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Blimey when did you turn into the loosey goosey. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif I thought folding was sublime. I may have to take your place as the resident fold pre flop policeman

[/ QUOTE ]

If it makes you feel any better there are only two hands I won't fold pre-flop, /images/graemlins/grin.gif. I was just sayin' what my favorite hands were, /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Yugoslav

[Geordie Ramone]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My most favorite hands in levels 1-3 are: 88,99,TT,JJ,QQ,KK,AA,AK,AQ,KQ.

My most favorite hands after level 3 are: any two.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Blimey when did you turn into the loosey goosey. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif I thought folding was sublime. I may have to take your place as the resident fold pre flop policeman

[/ QUOTE ]

If it makes you feel any better there are only two hands I won't fold pre-flop, /images/graemlins/grin.gif. I was just sayin' what my favorite hands were, /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a relief. The foundations of my game were shaking for a moment there. Geordie who believes folding is sublime

[rvg72]

I have found limping in an unraised pot with connectors (JT down to about 56) in late position in levels one and sometimes two give me large wins often enough to make it worthwhile at least in $33's and lower. I can then tighten up the rest of the way.

I'd fold KJo in level 1 without any hesitation but would plunk down 15 chips to play 87o. It's just important to know when to fold'em which in most cases is quickly and to really watch your opponents. Makes no sense to limp in if the guy to your left is really aggressive but this works well in more passive tables.

[pipster]

I find that the early 1-3 levels on Party are so passive that you can normally limp with any monster flopping hand (Axs, Kxs, any pair, suited connectors) and hope to hit the monster flop with the flush, straight, trips, etc. Normally when you hit these, good post flop play can bust someone of all their chips. About 60-70% of tournaments I hit some kind of double up hand in the first 3 levels and can go into the L4+ with 2000+ chips. Last night in 3 tourneys I flopped a straight vs top pair, top kicker and doubled up, trips vs top 2 pair and doubled up, and nut flush vs middle flush on the turn to double up. Playing from L4+ with 2K+ on a 1K starting stack table makes it a lot easier to survive those middle rounds with some steals and aggressive big hand play.

[The Yugoslavian]

Unfortunately for you doing what you're talking about isn't profitable.

Oh well....

The good news is that you don't leak many chips doing it on level 1.

Yugoslav

[rvg72]

I think there is room in the SNG profit club for different playing styles but would tend to agree that doing this in level 3 is not good for most players because 1) the 50 chip limp starts to hurt 2) there are less fish to double up on and 3) your table image suffers making stealing in levels 4+ more difficult.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
I think there is room in the SNG profit club for different playing styles but would tend to agree that doing this in level 3 is not good for most players because 1) the 50 chip limp starts to hurt 2) there are less fish to double up on and 3) your table image suffers making stealing in levels 4+ more difficult.

[/ QUOTE ]

It has less to do with being profitable overall. It has everything to do with many players who aren't strong post-flop overestimating their ability to turn crappy hands into profitable ones in shallow, low buy-in NL STTs.

I will deviate from what I consider 'standard' low level play....but only if I've identified a specific player who I know to be a big fish (not just a somewhat fish) and think I can take him down for his whole stack with my sub-premium hands a large % of the time.

Yugoslav

[SumZero]

I think it also depends a lot on your site's blind structures and the level you play at. I play on UB where you start off with 1500 chips and each level is 10 minutes long. The first 3 levels of the tournament are 10-20, 15-30, 20-40. The vast majority of the hands on level 1, and a little over half of the hands on level 2 and a little under half on level 3 are limped many ways at the low buyins ($5 and $10 SNG). Therefore I will tend to play all suited connectors, suited 1-gaps to about T8s, nonsuited connectors to 98o, Axs, Kxs, and some Qxs, as well as all pocket pairs from MP and later on level 1 and level 2 (assuming the table has the normal characteristics). Believe it or not, this still makes me one of the tighter players at the table. But I'm not afraid to fold if someone raises nor to drop my hand if I don't pick up OESD, 4 flush, or 2-pair or better and face a real raise. Because people tend to pay me off at the early levels when I hit and playing level 4 (30-60) with ~2500 chips is very good, and because I don't find playing level 4 (30-60) with ~1000 chips much worse than playing level 4 with ~1300 chips (which is about the difference between playing loose and not hitting any hands versus playing super tight), I think this is overall a profitable way for me to play in these games. With a smaller starting chip stack or a faster blind escalation I may play differently.

I think of it similar to asking the pro's what is the purpose of day 1 at the WSOP ME. Some people think it is survival. Other people think it is to accumulate chips from the weakest players. I think early rounds of SNG are like that and I try to put myself in position to accumulate chips from the weakest players before they have left the game. YMMV.

[rvg72]

[ QUOTE ]
It has everything to do with many players who aren't strong post-flop overestimating their ability to turn crappy hands into profitable ones in shallow, low buy-in NL STTs.


[/ QUOTE ]

100% agree with you on that.

[ QUOTE ]
I think early rounds of SNG are like that and I try to put myself in position to accumulate chips from the weakest players before they have left the game. YMMV.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how I play the first couple of rounds as well - end result is I likely have more 7th to 10th finishes than many here but very few 4th to 6th finishes because I generally have a good stack at this point.

My frequency of finishes from highest to lowest looks like: 1,3,2,7,8,5,9,6,10,4 on $20/$30 which is reflective of the way I play. Not sure if the approach translates well in higher levels - I would expect it would become less and less effective the higher up you go.