KQ, button, limpers

[Losfer]

I don't have a good read on my opponent yet. The table, in general, was a little loose compared those I usually play.

Any advice is welcome, but I'm specifically interested in my raise on the end. I figured there would be plenty of second-best hands that he would call with, but would like others take on this.

PF I didn't raise because I don't like to raise with unsuited big cards with lots of limpers.

On the flop I raise for two reasons. Hopefull to see the river for free, and to get as short handed as possible.

On the turn, with an OESD and two overs, I figure I have plenty of outs.


PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

[gharp]

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PF I didn't raise because I don't like to raise with unsuited big cards with lots of limpers.

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I usually raise this preflop. Most likely the hand would play differently if you had. The thing about your statement is it doesn't consider the type of crap that those people are likely limping with.

Flop and turn look good to me -- on the river, I think your raise is pretty risky. UTG's stop-n-go (or is that a donkbet?) looks to me like his JT became two pair. I'd just call there.

[topspin]

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PF I didn't raise because I don't like to raise with unsuited big cards with lots of limpers.

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Preflop raise on the button is mandatory. Out of curiousity, if you had AKo here, would you play it the same?

Given preflop, I'm not fond of the flop raise. I don't think we're buying any outs on this board, and an EP raiser almost certainly has you beat here. With one caller ahead, you're not going to succeed in isolating, and in any case I don't want to isolate when I think the other person has the best hand.

I just call the river since I don't think I can fold to a 3-bet. That turn stop-and-go makes me worry about JT.

[Womble]

Why are you raising that flop. You have 2 overs and a BDSD but you are not drawing to a strong enough hand to value raise. The flop is unco-ordinated so there are unlikely many draws out there.

I would call/call/raise

[Disconnected]

Missing a raise pre-flop is bad. Not only do you have an edge, but you would also like to be in last position for the rest of the hand.

On the flop, I think you have just about enough outs to call, but your draw is pretty marginal. I don't know that I would raise, even for the reasons you mentioned. I think I'd rather peel and fold the turn UI.

Turn call is fine. River raise is interesting. I'm not sure that enough 2nd best hands call, compared to better hands calling or raising. What would you do if 3-bet?

[irishpint]

raise pf to get the button, fold out the blinds and convince them you have AK or AA. With that action then i bet/raise the flop.

How you played it i think i call the flop preparing to fold the turn UI. Alas, we pick up an OESD and 2 overcards so we must continue. I just call the river.

[Losfer]

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PF I didn't raise because I don't like to raise with unsuited big cards with lots of limpers.

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Out of curiousity, if you had AKo here, would you play it the same?


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I would raise with AKo. HEPFAP is were I got the don't raise with Big unsuited cards in multi-way pots. However, it seems that everyone agrees that I should raise this. I will make the adjustment.

As far as the flop raise goes, is there no value in raising for the free card? Since I should fold the turn UI, does that give more, or less value for trying for a free card? Or is that just play to stay away from?

Thanks.

[topspin]

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I would raise with AKo. HEPFAP is were I got the don't raise with Big unsuited cards in multi-way pots.

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HPFAP generally assumes you're up against better players than the micro crowd. In this hand KQo has a significant advantage over most of the hands your opponents will have, and you should push that edge.

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As far as the flop raise goes, is there no value in raising for the free card? Since I should fold the turn UI, does that give more, or less value for trying for a free card? Or is that just play to stay away from?

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If you could get a free card for sure, then a flop raise is good. The problem is that unless you have a good read on the table, your plan will often be foiled either by a donkbet like here or someone else in the field. You also open yourself up to a 3-bet, and your draw is pretty weak.

If there were at least one other reason for a raise I'd like it. For example, I'd raise an LP bettor here since you'll sometimes have a better hand than him and might fold out a small PP for two.

[deception5]

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Why are you raising that flop. You have 2 overs and a BDSD but you are not drawing to a strong enough hand to value raise. The flop is unco-ordinated so there are unlikely many draws out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

When the pot is big (and Ed's guideline for this is 6 people seeing the flop) we have to do what we can to maximize our chance of winning it.

So I like raising the flop much better than calling. The pot is 9sb by the time the betting reaches you. If you call sb and bb will call most of the time and 5 of you will be going to the turn. This is a large pot in which you have winning chances and you'd like to knock some players out if possible to increase your equity. Raising the flop will also give you a free turn card some of the time - actually saving you 1SB.

If we were closing the action I agree calling would be much better than raising (as you are right that we're not raising for value here).

[topspin]

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When the pot is big (and Ed's guideline for this is 6 people seeing the flop) we have to do what we can to maximize our chance of winning it.

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The key is that raising must improve your chances. Most of the examples in SSH that advocate raising where you have odds to call involve trying to buy some outs or fold hands that would have redraws against your outs. This is not the case here.

I can't believe no one advocates folding on the flop. I think even Ed would agree with me on this one. You only have two overcards and they may already be counterfeited by QT or KT. You also already have an overcaller. Are we forgetting that we need a better hand to call (or raise) after an overcaller? What is UTG betting into this many players on a flop like this one?

There is no shame in folding here. You can always move on to the next hand. You lost 4 more BB's than you needed to on this hand by not folding on the flop. Next time remeber, fit or fold.

[Duerig]

I would just call the flop, but other than that, I play it the same.

EDIT: Oh yeah and raise pf

[jba]

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PF I didn't raise because I don't like to raise with unsuited big cards with lots of limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiousity, if you had AKo here, would you play it the same?


[/ QUOTE ]

I would raise with AKo. HEPFAP is were I got the don't raise with Big unsuited cards in multi-way pots. However, it seems that everyone agrees that I should raise this. I will make the adjustment.

As far as the flop raise goes, is there no value in raising for the free card? Since I should fold the turn UI, does that give more, or less value for trying for a free card? Or is that just play to stay away from?

Thanks.

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when HEPFAP says not to raise big unsuited in big multi-way pots, it's talking about games where it's usually 2-3 to the flop but happens to be 5-6 for a hand. In other words, you're up against 5 quality hands and KQo looks pretty weak. When the 5-6 to the flop is standard there's almost always a couple A4o type hands in the mix (which you know we have here) and you gotta raise with your equity edge.

[deception5]

I noticed your post above right after I posted mine and was hoping you would respond, appreciate the feedback /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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The key is that raising must improve your chances. Most of the examples in SSH that advocate raising where you have odds to call involve trying to buy some outs or fold hands that would have redraws against your outs. This is not the case here.

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You are probably correct here. I agree it's very unlikely that hero has the best hand on the flop so calling and re-evaluating on the turn is probably better.

[johnc]

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I noticed your post above right after I posted mine and was hoping you would respond, appreciate the feedback /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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The key is that raising must improve your chances. Most of the examples in SSH that advocate raising where you have odds to call involve trying to buy some outs or fold hands that would have redraws against your outs. This is not the case here.

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You are probably correct here. I agree it's very unlikely that hero has the best hand on the flop so calling and re-evaluating on the turn is probably better.

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Don't agree. Raising with 2nd best hand is the correct on the flop b/c you want the 3rd , 4th best (and once in a while, the best) hands to fold and not allow then to see cheap cards. Raising indicates strength, period - that's what you're telling your opponents so you can't wuss out on a cheap street to wait for an expensive street to act. Folding is actually, IMO, the 2nd option here, with calling being the weakest possible action to take. He did manage a couple of folds to his raise so mission accomplished. Pump it or dump it.

[topspin]

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Folding is actually, IMO, the 2nd option here, with calling being the weakest possible action to take.

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Folding here getting at least 1:10 with overcards and a backdoor straight would be absurd.

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Raising with 2nd best hand is the correct on the flop b/c you want the 3rd , 4th best (and once in a while, the best) hands to fold and not allow then to see cheap cards.

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You're talking about the concept of hand protection, but you're missing that you don't have much of a hand to protect here.

You also talk about not allowing drawing hands to see a cheap card. Do you realize that Hero is holding one of those drawing hands?

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Raising indicates strength, period - that's what you're telling your opponents so you can't wuss out on a cheap street to wait for an expensive street to act.

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I try not to worry too much about what my opponents think about the size of my, uh, raise button /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[SocialWelfareIV]

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Don't agree. Raising with 2nd best hand is the correct on the flop b/c you want the 3rd , 4th best (and once in a while, the best) hands to fold and not allow then to see cheap cards. Raising indicates strength, period - that's what you're telling your opponents so you can't wuss out on a cheap street to wait for an expensive street to act. Folding is actually, IMO, the 2nd option here, with calling being the weakest possible action to take. He did manage a couple of folds to his raise so mission accomplished. Pump it or dump it.

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What 3rd &amp; 4th best hands do you want to fold here (or, in what 3rd &amp; 4th best hands become the best hand when your hand improves as well)? Raising here is not good.

[johnc]

The chapter on Raising in ToP should explain my point. And, yes I do care what my opponents think of my raises/bets. Not every single chip thrown in the center of the table on my behalf is for value. True, you'll always have suckouts and maniacs at your table that can only manage to call or raise you but what the hell is the point of betting in the 1st place unless you have the NUTS!! Would you C/R or raise TPTK? Or just check/call hoping for the best? Miller would have a field day with oyu.