standard TPNK hand?

[schwza]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t770)
CO (t695)
Button (t710)
SB (t930)
BB (t770)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t360)
UTG+2 (t1515)
MP1 (t1045)
MP2 (t405)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls t15, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t90) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets t50</font>, Hero folds,

no reads. comments on both streets appreciated.

[Lady Dont Tekno]

fold preflop



keep it reaL
-LDT

[xLukex]

Have you been playing SNGs long? Most of the better players in this forum say playing Ax suited in level one is a bad idea UNLESS you are very experienced and know how to handle situations. You have 3,300 posts and are asking this question.

Just wondering if you're new to SNGs or what.

Personally, I fold this preflop. If I am one of those experienced players limping in with it...I only play two pair, flush draw, boat, etc.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Just wondering if you're new to SNGs or what.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah... lots of experience/success in cash nlhe, decent amount in mtt's, and i'm trying to learn stt's (i have ~80 stt's under my belt).

i guess folding the flop is trivial?

(this is a 30+3, btw)

[jah0550]

You should not play any hands like this in levels 1-3. Muck KQs in these levels as well. SNGs are night and day compared to ring games or even multis. Play ultra tight in the first 3-4 levels, then start stealing. By the time you hit about 150 or so SNGs, you will probably figure it out.

On a side note, why did you call with A6 and then fold to a bet when you hit your ace? If you are playing for a flush, you are not getting the correct odds to call the PF bet. Odds of hitting the flush 13-1. Fold these marginal hands and wait for a monster or stealing opportunities. GL.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

i guess folding the flop is trivial?

[/ QUOTE ]

You could probably keep playing there, but early without any reads this is a bit of a money pit, so folding is probably best. Also, I probably wouldn't listen to those who would tell you to fold A6s preflop from CO-1 behind a couple of limpers in level 1, but you knew that already. The general tendency in the STT forum is to avoid postflop play whenever possible, so there's not a lot of love for these kinds of hands.

[Karak567]

Fold preflop.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

On a side note, why did you call with A6 and then fold to a bet when you hit your ace?

[/ QUOTE ]

With no reads, this is going to be a hideously ugly hand to play. Will they fold better aces? Will they fire all the way with second pair? The first is very unlikely, and it's hard to gauge the second one.

[ QUOTE ]
If you are playing for a flush, you are not getting the correct odds to call the PF bet. Odds of hitting the flush 13-1.

[/ QUOTE ]

The immediate odds of hitting a flush on the flop are not what's relevant here. What's more important are implied odds (when you hit, are you going to get paid well?) and reverse implied odds (if you flop a draw, how much more are you likely to have to put in to chase that draw?) Flopping a draw and then getting a good price to continue will make this worthwhile, particularly if multiple limpers hang around. If you get priced out on a nice looking flop and fold, you've bled 15 chips and cost yourself basically none of your precious, precious folding equity for later.

[b0000000000m]

I play it like you did.

Don't listen to the pussies who tell you to play super-tight the first few levels. They are afraid of post-flop play, playing against unpredictable players, playing against bad players, and playing poker in general. Unfortunately for them, they're missing out on all of the terrible players' chips, because while they're fold-fold-folding the first few levels, you're gambling it up with the terrible players, and taking all their chips before the tighties have even seen a flop.

[adanthar]

In a 50+, with 1K chips, I'd call this. Here, it's a fold.

On the flop, folding's not bad, but if you check and button bets, call him down.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
In a 50+, with 1K chips, I'd call this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just started the $55s and would appreciate your thoughts.

I would think it would have some affect if you knew button or the blinds were very aggressive preflop (which isn't that rare).

You don't limp here with A6o do you? Would you limp with connectors and one or two gappers?

One thing about flush draws, I think anyway, is that they are not often paid off very well when they hit.

edit: well, often is relative. The ? is, are they paid off enough to make it worth it.

[adanthar]

Yeah, this is all marginal. I like playing marginal hands - at worst, they're neutral EV and give me practice.

Not A6o, but I'd limp something like 97s there with 1K chips, position, loose/passive table, etc.

Also, I don't want a flush draw. Generally, although I'll take a draw if people give me odds, I want a pair + draw, gutshot + flush draw, etc. or better to really go anywhere. The implied odds are nice because so many people limp AK or JJ and can't get off it when they flop good.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, this is all marginal. I like playing marginal hands - at worst, they're neutral EV and give me practice.

[/ QUOTE ]

with all due respect, this is a ridiculous statement. marginal hands are neutral EV if played perfectly everytime, which i can guarantee you do not (as i can guarantee with any one).

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
with all due respect, this is a ridiculous statement. marginal hands are neutral EV if played perfectly everytime, which i can guarantee you do not (as i can guarantee with any one).

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? If a hand is neutral EV when played perfectly, it's not a marginal hand.

The definition of a marginal hand - at least I've always thought so - is a hand that is marginally profitable/unprofitable depending on the situation.

Suited aces, 97s, etc. in LP behind limpers are more than marginally profitable.

edit: oh, I see what you meant...nah, I meant neutral EV as in 'my PT DB will have it at 0 when all is said and done'. My bad.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
with all due respect, this is a ridiculous statement. marginal hands are neutral EV if played perfectly everytime, which i can guarantee you do not (as i can guarantee with any one).

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? If a hand is neutral EV when played perfectly, it's not a marginal hand.

The definition of a marginal hand - at least I've always thought so - is a hand that is marginally profitable/unprofitable depending on the situation.

Suited aces, 97s, etc. in LP behind limpers are more than marginally profitable.

edit: oh, I see what you meant...nah, I meant neutral EV as in 'my PT DB will have it at 0 when all is said and done'. My bad.

[/ QUOTE ]



while true, i think it is best (especially for some of the players with a little bit less bubble expertise) to encorporate an almost abc style of play early in sngs due to the fact that (at least up to the 55s) people are willing to go broke with suboptimal holdings.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
In a 50+, with 1K chips, I'd call this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually will as well, but will sometimes fold in this seat. I'm definitely calling in the CO or on the button, however.

I like your style. Too many tight a**es around here.

[Matt Walker]

If a hand is 0 in your PT database I think you should definatly be playing it for Shania's sake. Playing more hands which in themselves are 0 EV would most likely increase your overall profit or at least I would think so because it makes it so much harder to put you on a hand and I expect your seeing the same people a lot at the level you play.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
If a hand is 0 in your PT database I think you should definatly be playing it for Shania's sake. Playing more hands which in themselves are 0 EV would most likely increase your overall profit or at least I would think so because it makes it so much harder to put you on a hand and I expect your seeing the same people a lot at the level you play.

[/ QUOTE ]

which would be +EV in and of itself

[Newt_Buggs]

do the $100 players limp this in their games?

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I play it like you did.

Don't listen to the pussies who tell you to play super-tight the first few levels. They are afraid of post-flop play, playing against unpredictable players, playing against bad players, and playing poker in general. Unfortunately for them, they're missing out on all of the terrible players' chips, because while they're fold-fold-folding the first few levels, you're gambling it up with the terrible players, and taking all their chips before the tighties have even seen a flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is mostly why i posted the hand. i think folding preflop is too tight given some players' incredible desire to dump their chips.

but i know you should play tighter at the 10/15 in a stt compared to a mtt, so i wanted to see what other people said. i probably would've folded if i were 1 seat farther out of position.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't limp here with A6o do you?

[/ QUOTE ]

limping a6 here at any buy-in would be horrible.

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play it like you did.

Don't listen to the pussies who tell you to play super-tight the first few levels. They are afraid of post-flop play, playing against unpredictable players, playing against bad players, and playing poker in general. Unfortunately for them, they're missing out on all of the terrible players' chips, because while they're fold-fold-folding the first few levels, you're gambling it up with the terrible players, and taking all their chips before the tighties have even seen a flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is mostly why i posted the hand. i think folding preflop is too tight given some players' incredible desire to dump their chips.

but i know you should play tighter at the 10/15 in a stt compared to a mtt, so i wanted to see what other people said. i probably would've folded if i were 1 seat farther out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but you're calling off you're chips on big drawing hands (which, you're really only looking for two pair or the flush) can cripple you later when you focus more on stealing blinds and pushing with better hands. So, while this may help pump you up some times, I think it only hurts you more in the long run.

So, you call this, and now you have this decision. If you check call the whole way down and lose to ATs, you've lost up to T200 (could happen on a draw too). So, while it looked like a good idea to try to hit it big, you're just stuck. You need to hit your hand hard to have it pay off, and then you have to hope they hit their hand as well, which is more unlikely if you're waiting for two pair or that flush.

But if you can limp preflop, and fold if you get worse than two pair, it may be alright. (I'd still strongly consider folding though, unless I had over T1000 like someone said)

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
So, you call this, and now you have this decision. If you check call the whole way down and lose to ATs, you've lost up to T200 (could happen on a draw too). So, while it looked like a good idea to try to hit it big, you're just stuck. You need to hit your hand hard to have it pay off, and then you have to hope they hit their hand as well, which is more unlikely if you're waiting for two pair or that flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

you did see the part where i folded on the flop, right?

[junkmail3]

Yeah, I'm just addressing the larger issuse. (I think folding on the flop was the right move)