Preflop call?

[bufrakbh]

I went through my games from yesterday and wanted feedback on some of the hands I was unsure of. Im not that used to the poker language or the way to present the problem, so please dont laugh too high if its not up to standard /images/graemlins/smile.gif

This was how the hand went:

I have K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

4 limps, I call, button raises. All but the big blind calls (Pot: 7BB)

Flop: T /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Betting: Check, bet, drop, call, call, ME....

What should I do? there is 2 behind me. I was very reluctant to fold top pair, but it was a very scary flop. There is both flush and straight danger. The guy that raised before the flop might have a king and my 4 would be worthless (unless later making a 2 pair or fullhouse).

As it turned out I folded, the better had ace-jack, so I would have lost.

As a bonus question: Shouls I even enter preflop? My thoughts was that there was already a lot in the pot and many players, and the strenght of my preflop hand was the flush draw, so it would be ok.

[jrz1972]

1. This is a pretty easy fold on the flop. You're not closing the action and can reasonably forsee a raise from the pre-flop aggressor. It is very easy for you opponents to have you outkicked, or to be behind two pair, a big set, a straight, or a flush. Even if you ARE currently ahead, there are a bunch of cards that can beat you. Good fold.

2. I will sometimes play Kxs, but usually just on the button. The remaining players to act need pretty low PFRs, since I really do not want to have to call a raise with this hand. In other words, yes this is marginally playable, but it's table-specific.

[Tom_W]

I would have probably folded preflop, if you had A4s I may have called. (I wouldnt have liked the raise behind me though) The fold on the flop was good the preflop raise could have ment AK in which case your outkicked and their are plenty of other scary draws out their and no hearts so ya I think it was good to muck it when you did.

[bufrakbh]

Thanks.

I play ,5/1 on Pacific, and Im not reading the other players well enough to say if they are one or the other. Ususally its just "He is playing a lot of hands" or "He is always calling to the river, and then folds"

As I understand it there is no software to help evaluate other players at Pacific, but as soon as the bonus is cleared Im off to another site, and expect to get Pokertracker then.

[Fantam]

At the time the action came round to you on the flop there were 17sb in the pot, so the pot was quite big.

However 3 players had already indicated that they liked their hands sufficiently to bet/call and there were 2 more (including the PF raiser) to act behind you.

It was very unlikely that you were going to win this pot with that scary board. Flush and straight draws and possibly already made 2 pair hands or flush or straight.

Nonetheless you did have top pair (weak kicker) and were getting pot odds of 17:1 to call. So it would probably have been worth your calling the bet in the hope that your K top pair either held up or improved.

It definitely would not have been worth raising in this instance. Your hand was just too weak and would not have folded out a better K or any flush/straight draws.

On the turn you would then have had to re-evaluate your position, and depending on the turn card and action, folding to a double size turn bet or raise may then have been best.

Yes you were correct to enter the pot PF with 4 limpers in front of you. Kx(s) is a speculative hand, which can win you big pots if you make your flush.

It is probably best played from late position though, where you have fewer players to act behind you. That is because it can be a difficult hand to play if you just hit your K on the flop and have to act first with several players still to act behind you for the rest of the hand.

[grjr]

This is an auto-call for me pre-flop after 4 limpers. It's also an auto-fold on that flop. Nothing but bad news there. If you can't fold top pair on flops like this then don't play Kxs OR EVEN Axs. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[einbert]

Don't fold the flop, the pot is too big.

Call and raise a safe turn I think.

[bufrakbh]

I can see there is a mixed evaluation, so Im not completely off here /images/graemlins/cool.gif

I havent mentioned the pot size consideration. To be honest I dont remember what my thought was, but I usually look at the pot size, so it was probably the reason for my doubts about not folding. And the rest seem to be inline with the thinks you all mention.

Thanks for all your comments.

[einbert]

The preflop call is fine, by the way. But not if you are going to fold this flop for one bet in this huge pot.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
The preflop call is fine, by the way. But not if you are going to fold this flop for one bet in this huge pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like a flop fold here even if the pot is laying 1:10. If we're ahead it's not by much; most callers probably have at least 5 outs, and anyone with a spade has a monster draw against us. We're also way behind to a better top pair or two pair, many of our outs are tainted, and we face monster redraws even if we hit.

Playing Axs and Kxs with the little kickers is fine if you're not liable to get trapped into marginal hands on the flop.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
I like a flop fold here even if the pot is laying 1:10.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is laying almost 20-1 though. We surely have more than 5% pot equity on average.

[jrz1972]

Yeah, the pot is big, but that doesn't mean we should be calling with any piece of the board regardless of the flop.

First of all, we are very likely behind already. Boards with three broadway cards will often give somebody two pair. The PFR might easily have a set that we are drawing almost dead against. And of course we could be on a backdoor full house draw against a flopped straight or flush. Not to mention the possibility that we're outkicked by AK (a likely hand for PFR) or even a lowly K5.

Second, even in the unlikely even that we're ahead, we have to dodge a ton of cards twice for our hand to hold up. Specifically, any /images/graemlins/spade.gif, any A, any J, or any 9 instantly kills our hand. Granted, some of those 18 outs against us are probably in the hands of our opponents, but still, it is not likely that our hand will hold up even if we are ahead.

And the betting isn't over. After we chip in one SB (because the pot odds are so great), could we really claim to be surprised by a raise on our left? On a bad day it will be two more bets back to us.

When you add together the facts that we're very likely behind AND we have to dodge a bunch of bullets on the turn and river AND the true pot odds aren't as good as they appear, I don't see how we can call this even in a large pot. Once you account for future betting (6 sbs -- two on each street), I doubt our equity justifies continuing.

[shadow29]

You're done.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

2,083,919 games 13.718 secs 151,911 games/sec

Board: Ts Qs Ks
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 20.5194 % [ 00.18 00.03 ] { Kh4h }
Hand 2: 19.8675 % [ 00.18 00.02 ] { random }
Hand 3: 19.8644 % [ 00.18 00.02 ] { random }
Hand 4: 19.8828 % [ 00.18 00.02 ] { random }
Hand 5: 19.8659 % [ 00.18 00.02 ] { random }


---

And their hand won't be random if they're betting and calling.

[einbert]

These numbers clearly don't indicate a fold.

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
These numbers clearly don't indicate a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was against 5 random hands. Moreover, your edge is very very small against random hands. I'm done with this hand.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
These numbers clearly don't indicate a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was against 5 random hands. Moreover, your edge is very very small against random hands. I'm done with this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough, but in no way does your PokerStove analysis argue towards folding.

The point is, you have to dodge a lot of bullets, but you are winning this pot more than 1/17 of the time. Even if button raises 100% of the time, you're still getting a good 15-1 on your money overall or so. And he's not going to raise 100% of the time.

You might be a long shot to win this hand, but you are getting pretty long odds from the pot to call. You have to compare those two if you want to see whether calling or folding is better.

[DeathDonkey]

No you played it right. I prefer to have the button to limp with such a weak hand but with 4 limpers in front its fine. Good job recognizing this is the exact wrong flop to go to war with top pair. Even if you are ahead people will have a million outs to beat you. This is a reverse implied odds nightmare. Good fold.

-DeathDonkey

[einbert]

I posted this hand in SS and entity gave a damn good argument for folding the flop.

link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2575653&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

[MrWookie47]

1. If you use the HandGrabber utility, you can import Pacific hands into PT.

2. PT "reads" aren't everything.

3. Those sort of notes that you're taking aren't the most useful. Note what hands he shows down. What kinds of things he'll bet out on the flop. What he'll bet out against a PFR. What he'll check/raise. If he bluffs. Etc.

4. Fold the flop. Preflop is marginal. I'd prefer to have the button, but it's probably very slim +EV to limp here.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I posted this hand in SS and entity gave a damn good argument for folding the flop.

link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2575653&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

You chook. I thought you actually played this hand.

Anyway, yeah, fold the flop.

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, yeah, fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice to have some backup.

I thought you were that other guy tho. He had an avatar like this. Forgot his name.

Einbert- I think that the numbers do argue for a fold, even if it takes a bit of extrapolation. If we have such a small edge against 5 random hands, wouldn't it therefore be logical that we have a smaller edge (perhaps negative) against 5 nonrandom hands?

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
I posted this hand in SS and entity gave a damn good argument for folding the flop.

link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2575653&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is an auto-call for me pre-flop after 4 limpers. It's also an auto-fold on that flop. Nothing but bad news there. If you can't fold top pair on flops like this then don't play Kxs OR EVEN Axs.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I first read this I didn't realize it was a joke, lol.

[/ QUOTE ]


I have to admit I bristled a little bit when I read this in my email. I guess you've changed your mind now though, eh? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[AmarilloJim1]

I think the pf call was fine.