KK turn decision on a coordinated board [Archive]

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topspin

06-07-2005, 12:36 AM

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero bets...

Standard? Unless everyone is calling with something worse than second pair with no flush draws on the flop, I'm likely behind to at least one of the players. Checking the turn makes the rest of the hand tougher to play though.

Jakesta

06-07-2005, 12:40 AM

Don't forget about all the outs you just picked up. You now have outs to a flush and straight.

I like betting here.

Weatherhead03

06-07-2005, 12:41 AM

Tough situation.. I would still bet the turn though as you now do have more outs considering your gunshot and flush draws now.

topspin

06-07-2005, 12:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't forget about all the outs you just picked up. You now have outs to a flush and straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't forget, that's one of the reasons I pulled the trigger here. Having all the added outs does mean that I can no longer bet and fold to a raise, though, as I could if the board were 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gifs instead of /images/graemlins/spade.gifs.

Transference

06-07-2005, 01:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Tough situation.. I would still bet the turn though as you now do have more outs considering your gunshot and flush draws now.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW ill suggest a few reasons for not betting out here.

- you have very little idea how many outs you actually have.
- you are not in a position to fold if its raised behind you
- it is certainly not unlikely that this will be raised behind you.
- It is very doubtfull that a better hand will fold for 1 more bet.
- A stronger draw than yours will not fold for one more bet.
- It is unlikely that you are ahead.

Im not saying a check call is correct but I'm suprised no one has suggested the merits of seeing a river as cheaply as possible.

Bodhi

06-07-2005, 01:40 AM

We have the second best pair and the one-card-nut-flush-draw (always wanted to say that /images/graemlins/laugh.gif). If it's possible that someone doesn't have an Ace, and it is, then I think there's value to betting the turn.

If you don't improve you can check-call the river to avoid being raised.

Bodhi

06-07-2005, 01:41 AM

...because it's better to bet than call if at all possible.

Jakesta

06-07-2005, 01:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
...because it's better to bet than call if at all possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

mmbt0ne

06-07-2005, 01:44 AM

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
We have the second best pair and the one-card-nut-flush-draw (always wanted to say that /images/graemlins/laugh.gif).

[/ QUOTE ]

Look again. A/images/graemlins/spade.gif owns this board right now.

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
If it's possible that someone doesn't have an Ace, and it is, then I think there's value to betting the turn.

If you don't improve you can check-call the river to avoid being raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, with 3 callers on the flop, I'm checking the turn a LOT there. Like, 100% a lot. Are you worried about a free card?

Bodhi

06-07-2005, 01:46 AM

Woah, I totally read that Ace as a /images/graemlins/spade.gif for some reason.

In any case, the K flush is still valuable.

Jakesta

06-07-2005, 01:47 AM

What makes you think someone has the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif?

mmbt0ne

06-07-2005, 01:48 AM

That doesn't matter except to point out that it's not the nut flush draw.

Why do you think we have the best hand with 3 callers on the flop?

Jakesta

06-07-2005, 01:53 AM

I think you are giving too much credit to typical Party .5/1 players. There is probably a T and maybe a 7 calling here as well, trying to improve to 2pair.

mmbt0ne

06-07-2005, 02:00 AM

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
I think you are giving too much credit to typical Party .5/1 players. There is probably a T and maybe a 7 calling here as well, trying to improve to 2pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, one's got a T, one's got a 7. What's the 3rd guy got?

You can always make examples where you're hand is best, but honestly, these players are bad, but it's extremely rare that you find 3 braindead players in one flop.

Jakesta

06-07-2005, 02:03 AM

But what would you do here then, if you don't bet?

Would you check the turn and fold to a bet? Do you check-call? What if you whiff on the river? What if you hit one of your tainted K outs?

Entity

06-07-2005, 02:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero bets...

Standard? Unless everyone is calling with something worse than second pair with no flush draws on the flop, I'm likely behind to at least one of the players. Checking the turn makes the rest of the hand tougher to play though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely not standard.

Actually, I think I prefer a check here to a bet.

mmbt0ne

06-07-2005, 02:11 AM

Easy check-call (for 1 bet). After that, it depends on who bets, who raises, who calls, who folds. There isn't an easy line. It's not an easy game.

OP said doing this made the hand play easier. Well, maybe that's true, but never sacrifice EV for ease.

New topic (because I like asking questions too /images/graemlins/smile.gif )
What do you do if you do if you bet the turn, get three calls, and the river come a 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif?

Transference

06-07-2005, 02:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
...because it's better to bet than call if at all possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might want to rethink why your making this assumption and how this situation applies.

Jakesta

06-07-2005, 02:40 AM

I like betting the turn and check-calling the 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif river a lot more than I do checking the turn and checking the river.

Shillx

06-07-2005, 02:44 AM

Check the turn.

mmbt0ne

06-07-2005, 02:45 AM

How did the 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif change your hand/their hands enough that you now want to check?

Jakesta

06-07-2005, 02:47 AM

I never advocated betting the river. I simply said I was against checking the turn. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

afk

06-07-2005, 02:59 AM

I would check that turn. I don't think you're ahead and therefore I don't think there is much value in betting the turn.

topspin

06-07-2005, 09:32 AM

Thanks for the replies. I think the action on the next street is more straightforward, but I'd like to hear what others think too:

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP3 raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP3 raises, Hero ...

With 4 to the flush, I want to lead since (1) I don't want to give a free showdown, and (2) if MP3 raises I want to trap UTG+1 rather than facing him with 2 cold.

What to do when it gets 3-bet? Anyone not like me leading?

Wetdog

06-07-2005, 10:05 AM

It's 8:1 that MP3 doesn't have A /images/graemlins/spade.gif. He could have any 2 random spades and is giddy about hitting the flush. Without the turn bet you might not know. I like the bet/call line on the turn and river.

DeathDonkey

06-07-2005, 10:16 AM

Good lead on river. Fold now. Protected pot etc etc.

-DeathDonkey

gopnik

06-07-2005, 10:27 AM

The problem with betting the turn is that your have to call if you get raised. And you might have to call the river too.
Remember, check with outs and bet without. I think that applies here.

topspin

06-07-2005, 11:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Good lead on river. Fold now. Protected pot etc etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the river? For 1 more bet into a 17BB pot with the 2nd nut flush? Surely not.

DeathDonkey

06-07-2005, 11:27 AM

Yes we aren't good 1/18 I'd call in a 50 BB pot maybe or with a good read.

-DeathDonkey

Fantam

06-07-2005, 12:43 PM

I think that you were correct to bet the turn.

On the turn you had 14 outs to improve your hand. 2 outs to a set, 3 outs to the straight and 9 outs to the 2nd nut flush.

I think that gave you enough equity against another 3 opponents to bet the turn for value. Even if someone already had a made straight or flush, as long as it was not the nut flush, you still had plenty of outs to win.

Entity

06-07-2005, 12:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Good lead on river. Fold now. Protected pot etc etc.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not folding the river here. I don't like the turn lead though (I think it's pretty bad, actually).

My instincts in protected pots differ from my instincts when MP3 calls the flop closing the action with top pair plus a flush draw. He's usually holding the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif here but I think we're good ~10% of the time over a hand like J/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/spade.gif or another flush. It's really close given the fact that the Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif is out there but I call.

Fantam

06-07-2005, 12:54 PM

I think your leading the river with a bet was fine. Your bet was for value.

When MP3 raises, I would prefer to call in the hope that I will get an overcall from UTG+1 and that this will close the action. 3-betting would discourage UTG+1 from calling and MP3 will cap if he has the nut flush.

grjr

06-07-2005, 01:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good lead on river. Fold now. Protected pot etc etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the river? For 1 more bet into a 17BB pot with the 2nd nut flush? Surely not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I can say I'm a 100% loser in this situation when holding the K and raised on the river with a 4 flush on board. I call almost every time though like an idiot (I think I may have folded a couple times when there were 1 or 2 additional players left at the river). Maybe if I lose 10 or 20 more times in a row I'll stop calling.

Entity

06-07-2005, 01:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I can say I'm a 100% loser in this situation when holding the K and raised on the river with a 4 flush on board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know I can say I'm about a 90% loser when calling in this situation over 80k hands against unknowns, but I'm nowhere near a 100% loser here. It's tougher with the Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, and T/images/graemlins/spade.gif on board, but I'd say we're still winning just often enough to call.

Rob

Bodhi

06-07-2005, 01:35 PM

isn't this a party .5/1 game?

grjr

06-07-2005, 01:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I can say I'm a 100% loser in this situation when holding the K and raised on the river with a 4 flush on board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know I can say I'm about a 90% loser when calling in this situation over 80k hands against unknowns, but I'm nowhere near a 100% loser here.

[/ QUOTE ]

90% when you've bet out and got raised? Hmmm. Were a lot of these hands against trickier opponents than .50/1?