AA and got reraised.

[iceman5]

$1/$2 NL. Hero ($350)..Villain ($280)

Villian is the best player at the table (besides me /images/graemlins/smile.gif)
He is solid tight aggresive type player who patiently builds his stack pretty much like I do.

I raise to $8 with AA in MP. he reraises to $20 on the button. I flat call him.

Pot is $43. The flop comes 863 rainbow. I check and call his $35 bet. I almost positive he has KK (maybe QQ). He has never reraised me before in over 1500 hands we have together. I play to check raise the turn probably all in.

Pot is $113. The turn is a king. I check and he pushes $225 all in. UGH!

Anyone call this? Why would he make a huge overbet with a set of kings? Ive never seen him make a huge overbet like this.

[wmspringer]

hmm....that is weird. From your description, you pretty much have to put him on AA, KK, or QQ. Maybe he has QQ, puts you on AA after the flop, and is trying to get you to fold?

[ChuckyB]

That decision right there is why I don't play 1/2 yet.

[iraise50]

I don't think I call on the turn, but I would have check-raised on the flop. Unless he has a set, you've got him in a good position for you. Why not push, push, push? You got his bet there, and unless you fear a set, why get cute?

[TheWorstPlayer]

I'm very confused. What was your plan for this hand?

[soah]

Slowplaying one pair out of position against a solid opponent seems really bad. Make it $60 preflop and get the rest in as quickly as possible postflop. At this level even good players will have a hard time getting away from KK there (just read all the threads on here about people that will never fold KK preflop under any circumstances at all).

[theben]

agreed. playback with your hand preflop, then bet the flop strongly. if hes a donkey and you just call his 20$ you might be making a big mistake if the flop hits him a set or 2 pair. even if hes got KK, theres little chance hes folding at this level. as said above, even good players probably wont toss KK because they know there are even more suckers out there to make playing KK for all the cash profitable, so they'll play thier KK and live with the results. and if hes a bad player with KK or even QQ, his stack is yours

[iceman5]

I was planning on check raising the turn all in. We both have fairly large stacks. Theres no way Im getting a very good player all in preflop with KK. I raised, he reraised..if I made a another large reraise, he will fold KK believe me.

I cant check raise the flop all in either. The pot isnt big enough yet. Thats why I was going to check raise the turn all in. He definately cant get away from KK at that point.

The only real question is ..does he have KK or not.
If youre right that he wont fold KK preflop or otherwise, then it doesnt matter how I play the hand. I either take his stack or lose it if a king comes, no matter if its all in preflop, on the flop, or at the turn. (except the king came at the turn which muddied the waters).

[TheWorstPlayer]

So this means that your plan was to smooth call the re-raise preflop, c/c the flop, and then c/r the turn all-in? And you say this guy is a good player? How would you play KK here if you guys switch spots and hands and the turn blanks off?

[iceman5]

I see your point but since I raised preflop (didnt just call his raise). He doesnt think I have a set if I check raise the turn all in.

Hes going to think I have TT, JJ, QQ most likely. Most people reraise AA right?

At the turm the pot is $113. If the turn is a blank. he probably bets $75-$90. When I check raise all in, hes going to have a hard time folding, but if he finds a fold there, then he wouldve folded to a big preflop reraise also and I win alot more money this way.

If I check raise all in, the pot will be around $425 and he will have $150 left. Hes not folding there.

[iraise50]

Pot was $43 and his $35 bet on the flop makes it $78, 39 BB. I'd put him to the test there, so you don't find yourself in a tough decision-making spot there. I know you were planning to make more money on the turn but if he's staying in that hand and firing right there he most certainly has a card or two that will hit, but if you play back at him hard on the flop he's going to have to let it go, isn't he? Even if you think that check/calling is the best play on the flop, based on knowledge of that particular player, do you think check-raising or check-all inning is a wrong move?

[adanthar]

OK, so you're almost certain he has KK-QQ PF and you don't want to spook him. Fine, you can make that read and just call. But then the flop comes 863 rainbow and you check/call??? Boooooooo.

Come on. If he has kings, you raised and called his 3 bet PF, you have to CR him. Make it 90, let him push into your 'obvious jacks' (or just call you; then you push any turn and your 'jacks' are equally obvious) and then take his stack.

If he folds the flop he a)sucks, b)your read of his hand was way off, or c)you are far too predictable. But the same applies if the turn is the 2 of horseshoes with this action and he calls your checkraise. I'd get away from KK there; any idiot could, because you're telegraphing your hand (you sure don't have jacks - what, you're gonna check/call that flop with JJ and then give him another free card if he checks the turn/push into *his* obvious overpair when he bets it? Oh-kay).

IMO, you didn't screw up this hand PF, but you did completely [censored] it up on the flop.

PS: I'd call, because I think your read is off. This looks like an AKs that puts you on queens and wants you to call the weirdo overbet. Oblige him.

[TheWorstPlayer]

There are a few problems as I see it:
1. He really shouldn't be able to fold KK to a 3-bet from you preflop. I'm going to assume that you are right, though, and that it is not because you are a rock, but because he is an incredibly tight player.

2. Many players will check behind here on a blank turn with one pair against a tight player. Either you have two outs or he does, most likely, so there is not much reason to bet the turn. So you won't have a possibility of c/ring. So the pot will be the same size on the river as on the flop but he will have a free shot at a 2 outer. If a Q falls, he may also get away if he has you on AA-QQ since he now beats nothing.

3. What does he do if you lead out on the flop or on the turn, if they are all blanks? Does he again, fold? I can't believe anyone can truly be that weak. I think a better line if you want to trap is to c/c flop, lead turn. Or just lead the flop. Trying to c/r the turn is not going to work very often, IMO, against a good tight player who knows that you are one also.

4. You have to fold the turn. He has to put you on some hand range similar to AA-JJ. His bet simply makes no sense if he has anything other than KK since if he has AA, he is ahead of everything except KK which you are obviously not folding, if he has QQ, he is ahead of JJ, obviously not going to get a fold from KK, and unlikely to get a fold from AA (and this would be a strange play for a tight, patient player to make). So I think he has to have KK and is trying to get paid off by AA.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
4. You have to fold the turn. He has to put you on some hand range similar to AA-JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way that Hero played this, he does not put him on AA or even close. Moreover, if he did put him on AA, he wouldn't be pushing with top set, because pushing is the one possible way that Hero gets away from his hand.

I'm gonna alter my AKs read to also include jacks and maybe tens, and I still think Hero screwed this one up badly one street earlier.

[TheWorstPlayer]

What do you think OP's hand range is for calling re-raises OOP?

[adanthar]

With these stacks and against a guy whose range can be narrowed down to 3-5 hands, anything he initially raised with, and it's not close.

[TheWorstPlayer]

If you're calling 12 more heads up, out of position, with AJ here, you are not making the right move (and it's not close /images/graemlins/tongue.gif). But even letting your comment stand, which hands does OP call the flop bet with?

[chuddo]

this is the ideal spot and flop to lead into him on the flop. i agree with the flat call of the re-raise preflop, but only if you planned on leading 3/4th the pot on the flop.

that way he can repop you on the flop and a lot more of the chips can end up in the middle, while he still thinks his hand is the best.

as it played out, i call his push and almost expect to be shown AK here a bit of the time, along with other hands you beat.

[adanthar]

I wouldn't raise AJ PF in EP, and it's not close /images/graemlins/tongue.gif I might raise T9s or presto, and would call a reraise with both.

I agree OP *shouldn't* call with much here. He should be checkraising a fair bit and folding a lot. But when he calls anyway, a good, but not great villain will put him on a scared medium to high pair (something around QQ-TT, KK if it were possible) or a set. AA does not factor into the equation.

I'll give you one: if you're villain with KK, a TAG big stack in EP raises and calls your 3 bet, then calls the rag flop and checkraises a decent bet on the turn (a 2 of horseshoes), do you call? I think *that's* a mistake, and again, it's not close.

edit: I think leading the flop is OK if you also do that in other circumstances, but on this flop I'd checkraise everything I'd continue on with. YMMV and I think it's a style difference.

[nws103]

Why not re-raise as much as possible preflop?
If you were "almost positive" that he had KK, then it seems like an ideal time to raise and raise again. A lot of people won't part with that hand, so why not get all your chips in and save yourself from tough decisions down the line?
And simply check/calling the flop really gets you nowhere. At this point he's probably sensing a whole lot of weakness, and when a scare card comes on the turn he can make that huge bet with nearly any hand. And you pretty much have to fold.

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
There are a few problems as I see it:
1. He really shouldn't be able to fold KK to a 3-bet from you preflop. I'm going to assume that you are right, though, and that it is not because you are a rock, but because he is an incredibly tight player.

2. Many players will check behind here on a blank turn with one pair against a tight player. Either you have two outs or he does, most likely, so there is not much reason to bet the turn. So you won't have a possibility of c/ring. So the pot will be the same size on the river as on the flop but he will have a free shot at a 2 outer. If a Q falls, he may also get away if he has you on AA-QQ since he now beats nothing.

3. What does he do if you lead out on the flop or on the turn, if they are all blanks? Does he again, fold? I can't believe anyone can truly be that weak. I think a better line if you want to trap is to c/c flop, lead turn. Or just lead the flop. Trying to c/r the turn is not going to work very often, IMO, against a good tight player who knows that you are one also.

4. You have to fold the turn. He has to put you on some hand range similar to AA-JJ. His bet simply makes no sense if he has anything other than KK since if he has AA, he is ahead of everything except KK which you are obviously not folding, if he has QQ, he is ahead of JJ, obviously not going to get a fold from KK, and unlikely to get a fold from AA (and this would be a strange play for a tight, patient player to make). So I think he has to have KK and is trying to get paid off by AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Hes not incredibly tight. But hes better than most people playing $1/$2. Without trying to sound arrogant, Ive been playing $1/$2 at Prima ALOT for the past 5 months. I have the 2nd highest win rate of several hundred players that I have a significant amount of hands with. He must know this so I doubt he thinks that I have AA here. That makes a difference.

2. Youre right. Either he has 2 outs or I do. But I doubt that he puts me on AA so he HAS to think that I have 2 outs if he has KK. So, theres no reason for him NOT to bet the turn (before seeing the king fall). He has to think I have QQ, JJ, TT. Thats why I think check raising the turn is the best play. Thats the only way I think Im getting him all in with these stack sizes. I could check raise the flop fairly big and then try to get it all in on the turn, but if he has KK, it doesnt matter what I do since Im going to get stacked if he has KK. What I mean is..since the king did come, if he has KK, I'll get stacked if I get him all in preflop, or lead the flop and reraise his inevitable flop raise. The point being that if he has KK, the money is going in one way or another and Im going to lose.

3. No, he wont fold if I lead the flop or turn (Im talking about with a blank turn). But the money still gets all in if he raises me, or if I check raise him. I dont see a difference if its all blanks.

4. I did fold the turn and he showed so I know what he had. Apparently everyone thinks I screwed the hand up, but if he has KK, I saved alot of money.

I think it boils down to this.

If the king doesnt fall at the turn, I stack him if he has KK, almsot no matter how I play it.

If the king does hit the turn, I save alot of money when he has KK and lose the opportunity to bust him if he doesnt have KK and I fold.

So its all depends on how good my read is. I either saved alot or cost myself alot depending on how good my read is. If I get the money in sooner, there is no second guessing my read, but I also lose the opportunity to bust him if I get too aggressive too soon.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
3. No, he wont fold if I lead the flop or turn (Im talking about with a blank turn). But the money still gets all in if he raises me, or if I check raise him. I dont see a difference if its all blanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

First: If you checkraise him on the turn, he is good and he knows you are good, he will fold kings and anything worse than kings.

Second: He doesn't have two outs on the turn. He has four if he has kings and eight if he has queens (etc.) Do you see why?

[iceman5]

If the turn is a blank and he bets $80 or so into the $115 pot and I check raise all in...he is not folding KK for another $150 when the pot is $425. No way. Not with an all rag flop and the only hand beating him is AA. MAyeb if I had limp/called preflop because he would think I had a set..btu since I raised first..hes going to put me on TT, JJ, QQ or maybe AA.. Hes not folding in that sitaution.

How does he have 4 outs with KK and 8 with QQ?

[adanthar]

If you don't at least consider folding in that situation against an opponent you know well, you're playing this hand badly. He can still put you on QQ-TT after you CR the flop; he's not gonna do that after you check/call the flop and CR the turn, because if you play those hands like that, frankly, you suck at poker. Can anyone find a better line for winning the least/losing the most with JJ or TT than that one? No? Then why would you think that a good player that knows you're good feel you'd be capable of overplaying your middle pair that badly and giving that many free cards at the same time?

edit: On that note, if 'the only hand that is beating him is AA' because you can't possibly have 88 or 66 there, fix your PF game, too.

Anyway: actual definition of out aside, when the turn is an ace and he check/folds his queens, you're going to feel really, really dumb.

[soah]

If he's folding KK to a threebet preflop then he's certainly saving his last $150 when you go all-in on the turn.

And are you really saying that you would never open in MP with less than TT? It will certainly be easier for him to believe that you opened with a mid pair and flopped a set than that you are overplaying a worse overpair for your entire stack after he's shown so much aggression.

[anacrime]

I never feel I "have" to fold when I'm holding AA and a king shows up on the board.

[iceman5]

If I had raised to $8 and then he reraised to $20 and then I had reraised to $70....and then I lost the hand somehow, eveyone of you wouldve said "you might as well have flipped up your AA and showed it to him. You made it too easy for him to not make a mistake because he knew what you had"

So that clearly isnt the right play unless the stacks are less than 100BBs.

I could lead the flop, but why? I know full well hes going to bet any flop. He might raise and he might not (maybe he has AK and folds.)

I could check raise the flop. I think this might be the best play, but if he has KK I think he best the turn again and I get him all in. If he has KK, then it doesnt matter. Hes not going to fold in any of these scenarios.

If he doesnt have KK, then one of these scenarios is probably better because I dont have to second guess nmyself when the king hits.

[TheWorstPlayer]

How do you actually play QQ on an all rags board here? My line would probably be c/c flop, lead turn half pot folding to a raise. Maybe c/r flop and c/f if called. Whatever your line is, I doubt it is anything close to c/c flop, c/r turn all-in. And I really think that betting the turn is a bad move from him with KK on a rags board. And if he checks behind on the turn, you aren't getting his stack with KK. Which is why I don't like your line.

[iceman5]

You may think this is very weak, btu I would have no problem check/folding QQ on a rag board.

Ive been playing a logn time and the fact of the matter is that very few people reraise preflop w/o AA, KK or maybe AK. Rarely do people do it with QQ or JJ unless the person who raised, raises too much (LAG).

So I dont mind playing just for the set with QQ. Like I said it may sound weak, but Ive been very successful playing this way. Ive tried leading the flop, or check raising the flop and it hasnt turned out well.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Doesn't sound weak at all. And strengthens my point that there is NO point in betting the turn here since you are not calling if you have QQ in this hand. Therefore he will check the turn. Therefore you line is not good.

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
If I had raised to $8 and then he reraised to $20 and then I had reraised to $70....and then I lost the hand somehow, eveyone of you wouldve said "you might as well have flipped up your AA and showed it to him. You made it too easy for him to not make a mistake because he knew what you had"

[/ QUOTE ]

If you made it $70 to go preflop and you lose the pot, then your opponent DID make a mistake against you.

[bkfizz02]

Haven't noticed much attention to the possibility of AA from opponent. It's 6 times less likely than KK pre-turn given your holdings, but its not out of the question. What range of hands does your opponent put you on? AK? QQ? I might take his line with AA and hope to get paid off by AK.

I think the overbet when the king hits is inconsistent from this type of opponent. If he holds KK, he can't afford to push you out of this hand When the king hits, especially if he puts you on QQ-TT or AK or the other hands people are suggesting. After this many hands against you, he should know you could get away from Aces and should try to trap with a check-raise or at least make an attempt to get more money in. If he really has KK, the only scary card left is an A on the river, IF he knows you have AA, and I just can't see a good opponent fearing that 2 outer on the river. He has to give you a free card or make it cheap.

I suspect AA or AK much more than KK. Interested to know what opponent showed.

-BK