All in hand - Three players with the nuts...

[RickyG]

Hero is MP with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif
I come in for a pot sized raise in the .25 game to 1.1 four callers

flop comes
8/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG $50): Bet pot,
Me $27: Raise pot (leaves me with $5
CO: $23: All in.
UTG: All in
Me: Call.

now... There was a three way all in. One of the players I knew well enough to know he had the same straight, the other I knew nothing about. I thought I was doing OK EV wise , but it turned out that I had the worst hand after I had checked the odds (22% ev), as I didnt have clubs. Because I only had about $5 left and there was about 7left and there was about 63 in the pot, I called, the turn brought a K the river brought a club, and I lost to a 10 high flush.

I guess the question is, in this situation, is it right to fold because of my lack of outs? (I was drawing to a backdoor flush and one queen and one ten assuming they both had the straight.

Is it one of those situations where you have to push regardless? Any thoughts?

[pokeryogi]

I'm new to this but here it goes:
If your EV was indeed 22%, your odds are 78 to 22, or 3.55 to 1 against. With the pot at $63 and you only have to call $5, your pot odds are 63 to 5, or 12.6 to 1.
By the math, its wrong to fold.

[RickyG]

Rigut, I understand that, but my questions is more of a t heoretical one. I understand that I have to call the last 18, but assume I was last to ace, and there was a bet and a raise before me. If I am able to put at least one other person on the same nut straight, how many out's do I need before I push? If there are two of a suit, do I need two in my hand to call?

This has been the most problematic type of hand for me, and I always feel like I am gambling, which is not the most enjoyable of feelings.

[PorscheNGuns]

If two people push before you, the combination of their hands has you completely freerolled, the worst situation in PLO.(between the two hands you are easily looking at a tie for nut straight plus possibly a set and certainly a flush draw)

-Matt

[EjnarPik]

[ QUOTE ]
This has been the most problematic type of hand for me, and I always feel like I am gambling, which is not the most enjoyable of feelings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont play PLO

Ejnar Pik, Southern-Docks

[ogami]

I think its very close to a coin flip, given your read. If my maths is right, (which is a big if), All-in on the flop. Backdoor 4.55%, higher straight(2 outs) 8.79%, you win. A third club hits 36.36% of the time, you get nothing. Presuming the other players have only the made straight and flush draws, then the straight holds up the rest of the time (50.3%), 3 way split.

1/3* 50.3% + 4.55% + 8.79% is 30.1%, and to call a pot size bet and a pot size reraise, you're going to be putting in 30% of the pot.

Trouble is the other players will likely have a couple of outs too, which is going to mess with your odds. You are probably a small underdog, so a fold on balance.

[RickyG]

[ QUOTE ]
Dont play PLO

Ejnar Pik, Southern-Docks

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow.

[autobet]

First, you don't know you are tied until you are down to your last $5, so you quickly call.

Second, you have two free rolls of your own since you have the K which means you will scoop if a non club Q or 10 comes, and you have a backdoor flush draw.

[beernutz]

Eh, what? He has a runner-runner nut flush plus two higher straight redraws in addition to the current nuts. The only way I'm folding here is with a gun to my head.

[ QUOTE ]
If two people push before you, the combination of their hands has you completely freerolled, the worst situation in PLO.(between the two hands you are easily looking at a tie for nut straight plus possibly a set and certainly a flush draw)

-Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

[autobet]

and I would want to know it was loaded and the person holding it to my head wasn't bluffing.

[Acesover8s]

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and I would want to know it was loaded and the person holding it to my head wasn't bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes you just have to lay down a hand.

[autobet]

yes, but I don't think this hand is one of them

[Acesover8s]

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yes, but I don't think this hand is one of them

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously not, but this one is:

[ QUOTE ]
Eh, what? He has a runner-runner nut flush plus two higher straight redraws in addition to the current nuts. The only way I'm folding here is with a gun to my head.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
and I would want to know it was loaded and the person holding it to my head wasn't bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

[beernutz]

aces, I really respect your views on PLO and seriously don't consider myself worthy to argue with you. However, I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not on the hand assesment or whether or not to fold it and I would really appreciate it if you could clarify.

My take, and please correct me if I'm wrong. The hand is the current nuts and has four higher straight outs (the non-club Ts and Ks make king-high and ace-high straights, respectively) as well as the runner-runner nut spade flush draw. I've seen a lot of people push, especially in these small buy-in games, with just the nut club draw and lower straights on this type of flop so to me folding is just about out of the question.

Am I a moron?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yes, but I don't think this hand is one of them

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously not, but this one is:

[ QUOTE ]
Eh, what? He has a runner-runner nut flush plus two higher straight redraws in addition to the current nuts. The only way I'm folding here is with a gun to my head.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
and I would want to know it was loaded and the person holding it to my head wasn't bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[autobet]

Yes, a lot of players will push the second nut straight or a set, so you are usually going to call.

There are two conditions to get off the hand: Your opp must have conservative raising requirements and the money must be deep.