mentor searching protocol

[Meatmaw]

Does anyone have advice on how to best search for a mentor specifically for playing 1-table SNGs? Is there a faq around on good ways to look, or do people just ask people individually after determining they trust them etc? I'm interested in what kind of pricing models there are too. Naturally I'm inclined toward results-centric ones but how much do people typically charge? Something like 30% of profits over 400 sngs? Just curious what is usually done.

[CaptSensible]

I would love to know the answer to this too

[Unoriginalname]

yeah if there were people mentoring who charge based on a percentage of your winnings of a certain number of SnG's, I'd possibly be up for that.

[Moonsugar]

Someone who is good enough to tutor you would also realize this isn't really a good deal: 30% (of win/or improvement in ROI) over 400 games.

I have no idea how these arrangements are structured for SnGs, but I believe most poker coaching is flat hourly charge.

[AbelM]

I don't know if this happens a lot, but i don't think it's all that necessary.

There is a lot of free information available here for starters. I also think if you aren't that big an ass and are someone who is very eager to learn it shouldn't be that hard to find someone to help you for free, at least i myself wouldn't dare to ask money from someone for some advice. The mentor would at least be a very good player so i can imagine that he is already making a ton of money. Why not help someone with their game for free? It might be a positive experience and who knows, maybe they will learn something themselves.

But of course if both the student and mentor are happy with the arrangement, who am i to judge /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[J-Lo]

alternate idea: Instead of a mentor, have a peer. Someone close to your ability, playing the same games you play, and with similair results. Find a person like this, one you trust, and try picking each others' brain. Push each other to get better-- to get to that "next level." Trade HH, get opinions on marginal decisions. Get a "friend" instead of a mentor. It would be highly beneficial for BOTH of you, instead of trading money for knowledge. This is similair to this forum, but you'd have a more personal relationship.

[AbelM]

And you forget an important point: it's a lot more fun than having a mentor.

[Meatmaw]

Yeah, I agree that peer review is cool, and I do it. But I find it hard, with poker, to tell how much better or worse a person is than I am, not that it really matters since, for me, peer review is mostly about having someone there to help jumpstart your own thought process on hands etc.

I don't see how something like 30% of winnings over 400 games is all that bad. If i play 55s and make 10% roi that's over $1K. I guess that may be scrap to some people, but I guess I haven't laid out what the process would be or how long it'd take.

I was actually just thinking of it both in light of someone recommending it, and in light of a horrid run of OTM 26 out of 28 SNGs last night. How much variance and how much just play 'i suck' was what I wanted to try to determine if I could just get someone to look at those 28 sngs since, through peer review, I seem to get a lot of "good job, you probably have no trouble with the itm, etc", and while it's reassuring in a way, looking at my constant spiral to losses upon losses, and then a 26/28 OTM makes it pretty obvious how likely it is that I have huge leaks.

persevere.

[microbet]

Tilting?

[smcannon]

This whole forum collectively is a mentor. Any question you have, just post it, and HH you question, just post it. You'll get the knowledge you are looking for.

However if you mean by mentor, someone who's going to sit over your shoulder and watch you play and advise you on what move to make, then buy some crappy poker calculator instead.

[Voltron87]

with this forum you should not need a mentor.

[Unarmed]

Are you guys all mental? 99% of the post flop advice contained here is awful, and while most bubble/push or fold threads eventually wind their way to a correct answer, they often miss out on some key issues.

Anyone who thinks that you can see the same improvement in your game by reading and posting on this forum versus having a pro personally evaluate your game is seriously misguided.

Now, whether or not you want to pay for that extra benefit is clearly a personal choice.

[Gene2x]

$100 per is what I've found.

[Voltron87]

a person looking over induvidual hands would cost way too much, all the people who could give OP postflop advice earn too much per hour actually playing poker that it would not be cheap.

[Unarmed]

That's simply not true V.

[Voltron87]

How is that not true?

[citanul]

i've been known to do hand history reviews for free, for instance.

lord knows why anyone would want me to do that though, i stink at lif [sic].

citanul

[ewing55]

A lot of it depends on what you are looking for. If you want to talk to someone everyday for an hour and have him/her review everyone of your SnG then they would charge a lot.

I followed 2+2 for a while and found someone who seemed to be a step or two ahead of me. (I was trying to figure out 10+1s, he was just moving up to 20+2s.) I PM'd him and asked if he'd send me some of his hand histories so I could review them myself. (After a snide PM response "You send this to everyone??? /images/graemlins/shocked.gif") He agreed to sent me about 50 hand histories and offered to review my play as I wanted.

I have reviewed most of the hand histories he sent me (and I review a couple of them weekly to keep a feel of the game), he has reviewed about 5-10 of my complete hand histories. I bought him eastbay's SnG Analysier, and my rakeback accout gives me 25% and him 2%. That's his only compensation. (Other than the fact when I'm pulling down 20K a month he can claim he was/is my coach! Give me another month or two. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

I have always found that if you ask someone who is really good at what they do for some help, AND YOU ARE MORE THAN WILLING TO DO YOUR PART, they will *always* help you. If you want someone to hand hold you, that's a job. If you want someone to kind of keep an eye on you and your learning curve I'll bet almost everyone on this site would do it for free. Except maybe citanal. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif Hell, give me 2-1 and I'll bet even he'd do it.

Think about it this way. What are you good at? If someone came up to you and said "Hey, you're really good at that. I'm trying to figure out how to do that. I can do A, B and C but I just can't figure out how to do D. Can you help me out?" What would you say?

Don't ask a 109er or a 215er for help, when you are trying to learn the 11s. Ask someone who is a little bit better than you. I guarantee they will ask "Why Me?" and expect a good answer. If you are pulling random names from the board, they'll say no. You need to show them that you have done your part and don't mind working.

To my coach/mentor: "Thanks man, I couldn't of done it without you."

Of course I'm just a rookie, I could be wrong.

----------------Jeff

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
How is that not true?

[/ QUOTE ]

Say OP gets a 30% of profits deal with some tutor. If he runs a 0% ROI, the service costs zero. Not a bad deal. If he runs a 10% ROI, the cost of the tutor is essentially equal to his rakeback @ 30%. I would never pay a flat rate, but a % of profits set-up is clearly beneficial for both parties.

PS: I could count on one hand the number of posters on this board who I would pay for advice.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
i've been known to do hand history reviews for free, for instance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Noted /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i've been known to do hand history reviews for free, for instance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Noted /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

i hope that i don't start getting random assed pms though, people should remember that both:

a) i suck at lif and poker
b) i hate people.

citanul

[Phoenix1010]

It's impossible to take you seriously while you're using Dead's old avatar. Did you lose a bet or something? I see it and I can't help but think "moron," and it becomes impossible to read the rest of the post.

-Phoenix

[Voltron87]

bwhawhahahaha, i did it to [censored] with everyone who has dead ignored.

[Moonsugar]

[ QUOTE ]

b) i hate people.



[/ QUOTE ]

How could anyone miss/forget that?

[Meatmaw]

That's what I'd like to figure out. My assessment of my play was that I slightly tilted on one game briefly. I guess I could simply be apply some bad practices across the board. I 4-table so one possibility is that I'm not giving enough credit to spending time putting reads on opponents' long term play.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How is that not true?

[/ QUOTE ]

Say OP gets a 30% of profits deal with some tutor. If he runs a 0% ROI, the service costs zero. Not a bad deal. If he runs a 10% ROI, the cost of the tutor is essentially equal to his rakeback @ 30%. I would never pay a flat rate, but a % of profits set-up is clearly beneficial for both parties.

PS: I could count on one hand the number of posters on this board who I would pay for advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't think of anyone who this deal should be profitable for, I have no idea why irie does it, a good/great SNG player should be able to make well over $100 bucks an hour playing EASILY, and noone can afford to pay that who isn't at that level.

I love talking about the game with people but it would be a huge waste of time/money for me to take a student.

[curtains]

Apathy I think you'd take on a student, I simply feel that your hourly rate would be so high that it's not even worth mentioning because you know no one would bother to take you up on it.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

I can't think of anyone who this deal should be profitable for, I have no idea why irie does it, a good/great SNG player should be able to make well over $100 bucks an hour playing EASILY, and noone can afford to pay that who isn't at that level.

[/ QUOTE ]

The likely answer is that he enjoys having the students, and it's not an issue of maximum profitability. Shocking that anybody would think in such a framework, I know. Posting here is clearly not a profitable use of time, but people do it all the same. Why charge at all if that is his attitude? Two reasons I can think of: even though it's not the most efficient use of his time in terms of $ made, he still wouldn't mind making some and knows he can; a student who is paying you to learn has an incentive to take it more seriously.

[Meatmaw]

Say I wanted someone to review 40 HHs, hand by hand, and write how they'd play it before they see what I do, and comment on my play. Let's say, after that, I would give them 30% of my winnings in, oh, the next 500 SNGs (or if they wanted to wait and teach me more, they could start the 500 at any time). If I make 10% ROI then my earnings are 5.5*500 = $2750 and his take is *.3 = $825. That comes to about $20 per SNG reviewed. So if reviewing one sng takes 20 minutes it's about $60/hr, maybe $90 an hr at 15% roi, maybe $30. Maybe they charge 50% of profits in which case it could well go over 100. Who knows. Seems like it'd be reasonable to profit share like this for some people, given the tutoring was limited to what I mentioned.

I don't know. I'm no mentor.

[Moonsugar]

I had a similar run recently. I tilted. Oddly I was both too loose and too tight. Sadly, I didn't stop playing even though I knew I was not playing my best, or even well enough to beat the game.

davidross had an interesting post about how he hired Tommy Angelo as a coach. Tommy didn't coach him on poker per se, but on how to play his A game all (more of) the time. If a coach could teach me how to do this, they would be worth a lot.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Say I wanted someone to review 40 HHs, hand by hand, and write how they'd play it before they see what I do, and comment on my play. Let's say, after that, I would give them 30% of my winnings in, oh, the next 500 SNGs (or if they wanted to wait and teach me more, they could start the 500 at any time). If I make 10% ROI then my earnings are 5.5*500 = $2750 and his take is *.3 = $825. That comes to about $20 per SNG reviewed. So if reviewing one sng takes 20 minutes it's about $60/hr, maybe $90 an hr at 15% roi, maybe $30. Maybe they charge 50% of profits in which case it could well go over 100. Who knows. Seems like it'd be reasonable to profit share like this for some people, given the tutoring was limited to what I mentioned.

I don't know. I'm no mentor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you start charging by taking a % cut of people's future winnings, you are taking a lot of risks. If I ever did give lessons it would be by a flat rate.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I can't think of anyone who this deal should be profitable for, I have no idea why irie does it, a good/great SNG player should be able to make well over $100 bucks an hour playing EASILY, and noone can afford to pay that who isn't at that level.

[/ QUOTE ]

The likely answer is that he enjoys having the students, and it's not an issue of maximum profitability. Shocking that anybody would think in such a framework, I know. Posting here is clearly not a profitable use of time, but people do it all the same. Why charge at all if that is his attitude? Two reasons I can think of: even though it's not the most efficient use of his time in terms of $ made, he still wouldn't mind making some and knows he can; a student who is paying you to learn has an incentive to take it more seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not doubting that this is the case. My response was to the general opinion of a few in this thread who appeared to be under the false impression that it would +$EV for them.


And curtains is joking btw.

[Degen]

Well last time I did this I got some flack, but I also found two fantastic students, one of which is currently destroying the game. So I'll give it a second shot and hope those who don't like it can keep themselves silent, as this thread was started by somebody seeking mentoring:


I am willing to provide my services to a small number (less than 3) SNG'ers who currently understand proper play but are needing a boost to the next level.

I can give you great mentoring and feedback from reviewing HH's on how to play early tourney, how to play the bubble and also ITM/HU play.

I play the 33's and 55's but am only looking to coach those who are in the 11's-33's and looking to move up.

I have over 2,000 33's logged with an ROI of over 20%.



PM me for more info.

Good luck at the tables.


Andre

[Degen]

this is typically how it goes

Andre

[Degen]

depends how much the coach likes to gamble /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Andre

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you guys all mental? 99% of the post flop advice contained here is awful, and while most bubble/push or fold threads eventually wind their way to a correct answer, they often miss out on some key issues.

Anyone who thinks that you can see the same improvement in your game by reading and posting on this forum versus having a pro personally evaluate your game is seriously misguided.

Now, whether or not you want to pay for that extra benefit is clearly a personal choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems to me to be about right.

Just because the forums are invaluable, doesn't mean they take the place of a mentor. A lot of the people who are the best in the world in any field at all got there because of the help of a mentor, whether to kick start their progress, provide a critical edge to take them to the next level, direct their higher level study and understanding, or all of the above and more. Mentoring is, or at least it can be, a tremendous boon to almost anyone. The very least that good mentoring can do is keep you turned away from the time, energy, and money-wasting plethora of mistakes made when you're trying to reinvent the wheel by mastering a field.

A mentor won't give you an excuse to stop thinking or working; he'll probably make you have to think and work at least as hard, and probably harder. But a good one will make sure that you get extract maximum productive value from your thinking, risk-taking, and time expenditure.

Haphazardly learning what and where you can by reading the forums, doing your own relatively unguided thinking, and playing is a better plan than none, but not everyone's a good teacher, even of themselves. A mentor could be a hugely important and beneficial guy to have in your corner.

I'd love one, personally. Maybe I should just buckle down and ask someone. I'm one of those guys who finds it hard to ask anybody for anything, though. Feh, maybe I'll work up the nerve for it somehow.

[Degen]

there are other benefits apathy

one if Irie coaches/backs enuff players, he'll reduce his variance a ton and not have to play at all at some point

two it stengthens your fundamentals...prevents tilting...how are you gonna coach somebody and then get sloppy?

it also adds a social element to this job that doesn't exist naturally...in most other careers you have mentors and bosses and supervisors.


Andre

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]


And curtains is joking btw.

[/ QUOTE ]


I actually wasn't joking!

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


And curtains is joking btw.

[/ QUOTE ]


I actually wasn't joking!

[/ QUOTE ]

OHHH just re-read your post, I read it at first as you joking about how noone would want to be a student of mine, when you were just saying I would charge more then anyone would pay me, which is true.

P.S. Did AIM just die or was that just me?

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I can't think of anyone who this deal should be profitable for, I have no idea why irie does it, a good/great SNG player should be able to make well over $100 bucks an hour playing EASILY, and noone can afford to pay that who isn't at that level.

[/ QUOTE ]

The likely answer is that he enjoys having the students, and it's not an issue of maximum profitability. Shocking that anybody would think in such a framework, I know. Posting here is clearly not a profitable use of time, but people do it all the same. Why charge at all if that is his attitude? Two reasons I can think of: even though it's not the most efficient use of his time in terms of $ made, he still wouldn't mind making some and knows he can; a student who is paying you to learn has an incentive to take it more seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure there are other motivations besides profit, but in a purely selfish sense, it's kind of risk management, I would guess, for a mentor who takes a cut of profits.

His investment in his student is an up-front unprofitable expenditure of time, but, depending on the terms of any agreement, it could pay off for a long time after while the mentor does little or no work at all. A mentor who, ummm...ments? /images/graemlins/wink.gif ... a number of students can have several sources of income coming in, risk-free, whether he's playing or not. It could actually be quite profitable, if the terms are set up right. And while even moderate amounts of risk-free profit are nothing to sneeze at for anybody, that's all the more so for a poker player. Personally, I think I'd love to be a mentor if I had the ability. But everyone's different.

I'd guess the reward would come for any particular mentor at different points depending who he was. I've taught people martial arts and computer stuff, and teaching can be fun, but it's a lot more fun if your student gives a damn and really wants to improve. That alone can be motivation enough for either teacher or student, but without it, the relationship can be too irritating to continue regardless of any other rewards.

[ewing55]

Just an idea I thought about. If the teacher got set up as an affiliate and collected rakeback from his students. Once the student no longer wanted tutoring, the teacher could then start forwarding it on to the student. Or not. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Of course I'm just a rookie, I could be wrong.

--------------Jeff

[curtains]

There are good reasons I can think of for having a student. For one if I play too much I get burnt out, thus I play like 4-5 hours max per day unless there is some multi that I get caught up in. In between that time it may make sense to do something less stressful like teaching, and get paid a bit for it....also helps to keep you sharp sometimes.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]

There are good reasons I can think of for having a student. For one if I play too much I get burnt out, thus I play like 4-5 hours max per day unless there is some multi that I get caught up in. In between that time it may make sense to do something less stressful like teaching, and get paid a bit for it....also helps to keep you sharp sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if someone were to pay me say 150 USD / hour, and I taught them live, depending on the person this would likely be more stressful then playing SNGs.

[sublime]

there is a nice post by aleomagnus on how to beat the party lower leverl SnG's. i could serch for it, but i wont.