Middle Game Play

[luckyplayer]

I've been thinking a lot about my middle game lately. This is a typical situation I face.

Reads:Button has min raised then folded to a reraise, making me think he'll min raise weak holdings and therefore probably limp weaker holdings. SB has only shown 1 hand, in which he limped with a small pocket pair and checked through.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t1958)
MP1 (t1075)
MP2 (t540)
CO (t1206)
Button (t1396)
SB (t1215)
Hero (t610)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls t100, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls t100, SB completes, Hero checks.

Question: Would this be a time for a PVS?

Flop: (t400) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ?

[kyro]

Don't know what PVS stands for, but i'm guessing it means pushing here. I wouldn't unless people have been limp-folding often.

I check this and hope one of the other too yeehahs bets and doubles me up.

[Phill S]

I was about to agree with the all in from the blinds, then i saw MP2 limped in for 20% of his stack. I dont think he's leaving here, though i do think your ahead - just not enough to warrant the move with the minimal amount of FE you have.

I check preflop, then as the flop gives me trips and a nice pretty rainbow, i check behind the SB. I think MP2 will steal raise all in with very little here - if not then button who has a tendancy to raise junk preflop, will definately make a positional raise.

Whatever is bet, just go all in - no need to slowplay and risk the pot imo.

Phill

[citanul]

If you think that they'll fold, of course it's a good spot for a pvs, on the flop, bet.

citanul

[Karak567]

I like to check because often people in MP2's position will make a desperation grab at this pot.

[citanul]

that's true. that is viable, due to his short stack, but i mean, come on, who's going to believe that you've got a 2? you might want more chips than the short stack has to give to you.

citanul

[mcpherzen]

[ QUOTE ]
... on the flop, bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't think you should bet here. Trips with top-kicker on a rainbow board is really a monster. If your opponents are thinking players at all, they'll realize the most likely player to have a deuce in his hand is one of the blinds, so don't bet the flop and scare them. Short-stack MP might get desperate and push. And a pre-flop call by the button in an unraised pot many times indicates he's dying to "outplay" everyone with position. He'll probably take a stab at the pot if folded to him.

Plus, you're the second shortest stack with 7 players left and only 6BB's. You need to get paid on this one to get back into this SNG, and I think you allowing free or cheap cards is a chance you should really take. If some joker has 3-4 and hits his straight, or 8-8 and catches his 2-outer, so be it. I think moving all-in after a small bet by someone, as Phill S. suggests, is not a good play. Get this monster of a hand paid maximally or bust out of this SNG and start a new one.

--Zen

[Phill S]

But if you bet, shortstack comes over the top with his PP or whatever, then Button leaves the two of you fighting it out.

The only way your getting more than the shortstacks chips is by checking.

If its checked through, so be it, you were never getting paid so just bet the turn - but the key here is that if you check, the shorty goes in the button may consider his overcard draw or PP good or you check, shorty checks behind then the button bets as he has a tendancy to make bets with junk.

The question of what to do if they bet small and whether you tank it all in, raise min to tempt them in for more or just call to trap off more chips on the turn is the only question - checking is the only action i like first time round.

-----

Imo, if they bet a small amount into you, check-raise the min back or a touch more. If they re-raise back, put it all in. If they call, bet a good amount on the turn (this will be an all in judging by your stack size).

Phill

edit: Zen's reply wasnt up when i wrote this, on reflection i changed my opinion of how much to re-raise if your bet into, clearly if they bet 100, raise them back a little less as you can only give someone a draw on the turn, not a made higher hand (ignoring full houses).

[luckyplayer]

How much can I bet here without pushing? Or are you suggesting pushing?

[shadyridr]

I'd bet a healthy amount here. Straight draw is still out there and Ive been burnt before.

[CaptSensible]

I agree with mcpherzen. I'm no expert but I would consider this a monster flop. With the rainbow flop I would check and PRAY that someone puts me all in. If you happen to lose, well, the cards went bad for you that hand and move on to the next game.

[Phill S]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd bet a healthy amount here. Straight draw is still out there and Ive been burnt before.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isnt the time to worry about the 34.

Especially since it only has 4 outs.

Phill

[shadyridr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd bet a healthy amount here. Straight draw is still out there and Ive been burnt before.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isnt the time to worry about the 34.

Especially since it only has 4 outs.

Phill

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally I'd agree but I got burnt slowplaying pocket A's after a 9-4-A flop before. Since I raised 3X PF I figured nobody for the straight draw and I checked, it was then checked around and the turn came 3. I raised, dude reraised me all-in, I called and dude turned over 2-5o. Needless to say I was pissed the rest of the night and probably played on tilt because of it. Like I said it happened to me before and I'll remember it next time. And this happened to me at a $55 SNG.

[momo24]

You suffered a bad beat on a hand that doesn't even resemble the hand currently being discussed, and, as a result, you don't want to get paid off on this hand???

[the_joker]

Everyone gets bizarre beats. You need to think about how the hand would turn out if you played it over many times. If you're short stacked with a monster hand, I think you should try to triple or quadruple up, not just increase your already small stack by 50%.

[Creole]

I would def check with this rainbow. Eventhough the small straight is possible, that may be the small chance you have to take. Pretty sure someone will try to steal so wait til the turn then push. Just my .02

[Unarmed]

All you care about is getting your entire stack in. When choosing whether to C/R or bet from the blinds its all dependent on stack size. You want to pot commit your opponent. If checking and him betting does so, you should normally take that line because it allows others to bluff.

Betting is normally preferred with deep stacks because a C/R all-in decloaks your hand and allows lessor hands to get away. By betting you can lead the hand the whole way and no one can tell anything about the strength of your hand. (except that you led from the blinds, which should indicate huge strength to any thinking player)

In this case, a C/R is preferred because it allows you to get all-in on the flop without letting other hands get away. Also, shorty probably limped in with a *monster* and is just itching to shove this flop. Don't abort this plan for him if his definition of a monster includes AK.

CHECK /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[mcpherzen]

For the love of Pedro, everybody...PATIENCE, please. I think many of you are failing to realize exactly how far ahead you are right now:

If you're against 1 opp. and he has Js-Ts, you lead by 24-1.
If you're against 1 opp. and he has 8-8, you lead by 9-1.
If you're against 1 opp. and he has 3s-4s, you lead by 5-1.
If you're against 1 opp. and he has 6s-5s, you lead by 6-1.
AND
If you're against ALL 3 of the last 3 hands above, you still lead everyone by 2-1.

You're going to be making a huge mistake if you blow anybody out of this pot that could have been induced into putting many or all of their chips in. If you check the flop and a min. ($100) bet comes from either MP2 or Button, I really can't see many situations where you'd want to check-raise ANY amount (let alone all-in). If it's MP2 who bets and the other two fold, you should smooth call and check the turn. Yes, he's pretty pot-committed at this point, but why take the chance? If he checks the turn behind you, set him all-in on the river.

If it's checked to the button who bets the minimum, you again should just call to (a) hopefully keep MP2 in the hand, and (b) keep the button believing his hand is still the best, or that another bet (bluff) on the turn will win the pot.

Since this is the SNG forum, post-flop play is rarely discussed (and for good reason most of the time). However, keep in mind you always have more options than just "bet out" and "check-raise" with a decent hand on the flop.

--Zen

[Newt_Buggs]

no need to repeat what everyone else has said, but I just wanted to throw in that I am happy giving away a free card and allowing an A, K, or Q to fall on the turn.

[Unarmed]

I want my money in ASAP, not because I am worried about getting drawn out on, but because there are a ton of cards that can fall on the turn that will kill my action against a 5 or low/mid PP.

I don't mind playing it slow, and a min bet would alter my thought process a bit, but lets be serious here, the pot is 400 and hero has 510. I'm C/Ring all-in against a 200+ bet everytime. I've given overcards a change to be stupid. If a 5 can get away from that given the pot odds then good for them.

[adanthar]

If a bet of 200 comes from, say, the button, you have to call it, not CR. Give the other short stack a chance to CR push in your place.

This is one of those 'always check' spots for me, BTW, simply because I think there will be action here most of the time with almost anything these guys limped with.

[Unarmed]

I'd be shocked if shorty would C/R all-in with overcards after other dude bets and I call off 40% of my chips, especially given his F/E = 0 with his stack size.

If he all-ins its with a monster, and he's not folding that whether I push into him or flat call after his master plan of sucking us both in with his AA *worked*. Button will almost have to call either scenario anyway at this point given the pot odds.

Bah...who cares why am I typing this.

[mcpherzen]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be shocked if shorty would C/R all-in with overcards after other dude bets and I call off 40% of my chips, especially given his F/E = 0 with his stack size.

If he all-ins its with a monster, and he's not folding that whether I push into him or flat call after his master plan of sucking us both in with his AA *worked*. Button will almost have to call either scenario anyway at this point given the pot odds.

Bah...who cares why am I typing this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny, Unarmed, that you are actually making the argument for smooth-calling here, and yet you're refusing to do it. Listen to what you're saying. I too would be shocked if MP2 goes all-in here after you smooth-call $200 on the flop, but you have to admit there's a better chance that he makes that play if you just call than if you check-raise all-in. Maybe it isn't a "good" chance either way, but it's certainly a better chance if you aren't going all-in and taking away every last bit of his F.E. Therefore, your best play must be to smooth call.

I also think if you play it this way, you don't have to worry about the button scurrying away from his hand. Even if the MP2 folds on the flop, your call will have made the pot $800 and you have $310 behind. I think you can bet any turn or river card and get called. If the MP2 also overcalls the $200 on the flop, it's even easier to get your last $310 paid (with $1000 in the pot).

--Z

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
Funny, Unarmed, that you are actually making the argument for smooth-calling here, and yet you're refusing to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. Assume Button has a 5 and bets 200.

I'm saying that if MP2 has AA, he's all-in no matter what I do, and Button will call two all-ins with the same frequency as one. THAT is clearly open to debate. He's getting better pot odds in the second case but there's clearly a greater chance he's beat.

If MP2 has AK I think there's a near 0% chance he's putting another dime in this pot no matter what I do. If he wanted to get frisky on a semi-bluff, he would have just shoved when checked to as his FE is maxed. That assertion is subjective as well.

Really though, the main place we differ is in Button's action when a scare card falls on the turn. If you believe Button is committed even if a scare card falls, (and I will defer to you because, well, you're better than I am /images/graemlins/grin.gif) then I agree that a call on the flop is better than a push.