Zee mistake I made

[Matt Flynn]

Played this hand a while ago at Lucky Chances when they had the $2-3-5 NLHE game going. What do you think of the turn play?

8-handed. I call second or third in from the cutoff with JTs. Ray Zee's in the SB and raises about $30. I have maybe $450; he's got me covered. Three of us see the flop of KQQ. I remember it as rainbow.

Ray bets $40. Fold to me. I call.

Turn's a low blank. Ray checks. I check.

River's a nine. Ray checks. I bet $60. We go into full patter mode, me smiling and jawing at him, him trying to get a read. He made a great feint, sticking a fistful of chips in and then yanking them back really quick. It was bold and funny. He hemmed and hawed a bit, then called with 97s to take the pot.

I thought my turn check stunk. It stunk a little less because I had a straight draw, but how "less bad" was it? Any ideas? Please factor in the value of having a story about Ray (round to nearest $0.01).

Matt

[gaylord focker]

Why did Ray win the pot? You had a straight and he had a pair of nines.

[gaylord focker]

Im assuming something other than a nine hit on the river, and that Ray did win the pot and you had a busted straight draw. In any case, I would also take a free card on the turn here. I wouldnt want to get too involved , and possibly get check raised off my draw. There is also a pair on board, so I would just want to get to the river as cheaply as possible and hope I made my straight. If you bet, and did run into a real hand, then you would have to call a check raise with the possibility that you were drawing dead.

[Lurker]

[Graham]

I think Ray was letting you have the pot on the turn - well, that's usually my default thought here anyway, results notwithstanding.
Instead of bluffing on the end after you show weakness on the turn, use those same chips to stick out a bet on the turn...before you show weakness yourself. Bit late by the river. Then I guess Ray used that as part of his decision to call you.

[Matt Flynn]

[limon]

why call w/ jt. i raise here 100%. you see how ray made the right play raising w/ 97. you should be taking that play away from people. never look to FLOP a hand in big bet look to WIN a hand.

[Matt Flynn]

Why raise all the time, especially against a really good player? Calling behind is more intimidating, gets you more information before you steal, and gives you the free draw to the straight. I gave Ray a lot of credit here to be able to occasionally reraise with nothing on a good (and correct) read. Flat calling made it harder for him - I just botched the turn.

[limon]

i meant raise coming in w/jt not re-raise. your call after getting outplayed pre-flop was ok. if you raise coming in with this hand you win 100%. ray may still call but hell fold to a bet on the flop. and, strangely, i beleive a raise encourages good players to call you with dominated hands such as 45 of the same siut as your JT but FOLD live hands such as A6 of your same suit. OK, no more of my secrets.

bye.

[Matt Flynn]

Doh. Got it: preflop raise. Good point.

Good to see you posting again.

Matt

[Ray Zee]

first as limon says maybe you should have brought it in for a raise. but not always as lots of times you want a chance to play a big pot with this hand, and raising it before the flop ends that unless you are against a close hand.
on the flop you should have folded to my bet even though you had a straight draw. i raised going in and that flop looks like it hit me. you straight cards are prime full house cards for what is my possible hand range. just fold and forget about the pot.
since you played it, on fourth street you may want to bet enough to knock me out. if i check raise just go out.
after you checked it you are trying to win by making a straight and winning in a showdown or milking me for a small bet. no point betting on the end as its not going to be good for you enough times. bet this hand against those kind of players that wont call on the end without big hands.
thanks for the post matt

[cero_z]

Ray, I believe you left something important out. From the way Matt described the hand in the original post, I think it's obvious you used tell play against him. My advice to those of you who would bang heads with world-class competition is don't engage in patter at key moments in the hand (or elsewhere for the most part). When I lived in WI, Dewey Weum (world-class PL and tournament player) was occasionally in the same PL game as me, and I had to make this mistake myself a few times before figuring out that I was giving too much away. Best of luck.

[Matt Flynn]

Thanks for the feedback Ray. I thoroughly enjoyed the hand. Hopefully I'll be tougher next time we play.

Matt

[limon]

i feel cheated when i start to read a post and then find out its an on line hand. i feel there is nothing i can learn or teach about on line situations.

like in the hand earlier where i advise betting out 1/3 pot w/ qq into a paired board often times I give the almost imperceptable shrug as I bet this will keep people off you, you cant do that on line. i always let players "discover" something about me.

[Trefo]

"He made a great feint, sticking a fistful of chips in and then yanking them back really quick."

I would think that a top notch poker player would not have to resort to such bush-league moves as faking his chips in.
I figured he would have better etiquette.