Here's an exercise for all Hold Em Players

[balt999]

Here's the scenerio:

You get delt K /forums/images/icons/club.gif K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif and open raise in a MP/LP....Only called by the BB

The flop comes A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif K /forums/images/icons/heart.gif ..

The BB checks to you...what do you do?

Against a calling station?
Against a maniac?
Against a tight aggressive player?
Against a Passive player?
In a low-limit game?
In a mid-limit game?

Next scenerio....same hand..same flop...only this time the BB bets out....what do you do against the aforementioned opponents...

Thanks....

[skp]

While you can drum all kinds of reasons for betting, it's almost always better to check i.e. in all of your scenarios.

[Dynasty]

While you can drum all kinds of reasons for betting

I only need one- worse hands will call. Specifically, you will get called by any Ace, flush draw, probably a straight draw, and possibly a pocket pair.

You can't make money if you don't bet and you are much more likely to get called on the flop than on the turn or river.

[bernie]

along with the fact that they wouldnt put you on that strong a hand if you bet out....if theyre going to call at all, theyll call the flop with this board. many wont bet here, theyd check it, which is one reason why id bet out. since they wouldnt, they wouldnt put you on it...

if bet into, id call.. but sometimes id raise. he may just be testing and wont put anymore in once you call behind. another case of 'who raises this hand on the flop...' they wont necesarily put you on it. ex....you could play it like a free card play, and possibly suck an extra bet out on the river. lots of options when ya flop a hand like this...

b

[skp]

You are heads-up here and the flop is AKK, albeit with a flush draw. If you bet, the guy will call with the hands you mention but the problem is that most of the time, he ain't gonna have any of the hands you mention i.e. lots of guys three bet from the bb with an Ace high hand, pocket pair, two braodway cards etc when the original raise is from steal position.

Most of the time, your flop bet will be met with a muck.

IMO, this is an obvious time to check.

[bernie]

not an obvious check....

you can use how the other player would play this hand as a factor. and how he may think you might play it. this should be a key factor in how youd play this hand...

not saying id always bet out here, though that is my first choice, but id definitely alter my play depending on the player...

if checked to, why not bet? they may just think youre trying to buy it.

sometimes, that flop bet will be the only bet you may get out of em. it's the weakest bet you can make. any other bet, turn or river, they may see as power on a board like this and fold anyway...but a bet out may catch them off a little, even if theyre looking to muck their hand. some players view this as,' yeah right...like you'd bet that here...' then believe you on the turn bet...to which you can check the turn and look like your buying it on the river again.

some players will get overexcited and c/r with this hand....boy, that's a great play...kills your action real quick. when i see that i think, 'way to maximize, dude...'

lots of options here, id have em all in my arsenal

b

ps. of course some guys will be ultra paranoid and say ' you HAVE to bet out!!! no free cards...he could hit his one out for the royal....make him pay!!!' <= that's a joke...btw..

[butters]

i'm betting out 100% of the time.

[riffraff]

If there is a $50,000 bad beat jackpot and a low limit game, you want to check this flop. Let those baby pairs spike a set on the turn and hopefully quad up on the river for some big bucks.

[skp]

Let's say that you raised with 88 on the button. Only the bb calls. The flop comes AQT or AK9 or AKK etc. The reason we bet our 88 here because we expect that the guy will fold and give us the pot. Indeed, that is generally what will happen. You bet. He folds.

Now, the probability that he will fold on an AKK flop when we have KK is even higher (as we have crippled the deck a lot more than in the 88 scenario).

In any event, the things you say are all true but the fact remains that the best play is to check.

Sklansky posted a similar problem a couple of years ago. He said that his students generally come up with some creative reasons for betting much like the ones you have given. Many posters, including me, agreed with his students. OZ said we were all nuts.

2 years wiser, I now agree with OZ.

Check!

[msk]

I would bet the flop against a true maniac and then call his raise, and then he'd be convinced my bet was a bluff. I could then make a lot of $$.

I would check against anyone else, bet the turn, or even only call the turn, waiting to raise the river if the other player got lucky enough to almost catch up.

Here is a true story example of why:

I just sat down in an online 10-20 game. I raised with JJ from late position, got 7 total players, 4 before and 2 after me. The flop came JJx. (Glad it was online, live I would have spit up my gum.)

Checked to me, I checked.

Turn was 3 --- J /forums/images/icons/spade.gif J /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif [J /forums/images/icons/heart.gif J /forums/images/icons/club.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif ] 3 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif .

Checked to me, I gritted my teeth and checked. Guy after me bet, button raised, early player reraised, I capped. Wow.

River was a 7.

It was capped again.

One guy had TT, another 33, another 77.

Several people told me that a bet on the flop would have put me heads up with Mr. TT. And that was true, they were all pretty good players, and no one believed I would check twice with such a monster.

I won about a zillion $$ on this hand.

Mark

[Dentist]

Here are some great techniques to do get that beloved AsKsK flop.

1) if you don't have an ace or a king or any spades, just wave one hand in the air and calmly say:

"These are not the cards you're looking for".
Then bet - everyone will fold, this works 100% of the time.

2) If you have the pocket kings and are going for deception just say:

"hmmmm.....let me count how many kings I have in my hand.... 2 - COOL." Then bet - you will be called 100% of the time.

3) if you have the QJ of spades, just say:

"Check.....with the intent of raising."
- you won't be bet into 100% of the time, and if you are, just raise, they'll never do it again!!!

4) if it's no limit, just say:

"I'm going to go all-in, because I don't think you've got the spades."

- this will get them to call because after all, this didn't work for Mike McD.


if you think I'm joking - I'm really not - all this crap works like a charm in my home game. So it's gotta work for YOU!!!!!!!!

[bernie]

i think even 'oz' would agree that no decision in poker is black n white. i dont see it as wise to check into a player you know will raise if you bet, or check behind a player you know will call....

as a default, checking is fine, but it's far from absolute. it's also not a good idea to play a hand the same way 'every' time.

ciao

b

[AceHigh]

I'm with you skp, I think checking is better.

[skp]

Agreed.

I was just saying that the obvious default play is to check. But specific factors (i.e. recent hands against this opponent, his disposition, your disposition as they perceive it etc.) might dictate a different move.

[2ndGoat]

Reading this, I thought right away "bet, no one will believe me."

Problem is, they don't have to think i've got quads- AQ, AJ, and also KQ to a lesser extent don't want to give free cards to a flush draw, QQ or JJ may be better than what they've got anyway. So no, they won't put me on quads/boat necessarily, but they might still muck.

After thinking about it for a minute, and then reading everyone's responses, I gotta check at least once (and pray AA is slowplaying! .. not that checking is a good idea if he is)

2ndGoat

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi B...999:

I'm not going to answer this, but this is actually a very good post. To play poker well, you must not only be able to classify your opponents accurately, but then correctly act on that information.

Thanks for a great post,

Mason

[cero_z]

The BB checks to you...what do you do?

Against a calling station? Bet.
Against a maniac? Bet, hoping to be checkraised. Then, call and raise the turn.
Against a tight aggressive player? Bet.
Against a Passive player? Bet.
In a low-limit game? Bet.
In a mid-limit game? Bet.

Next scenario?
calling station? Raise, then raise the turn when he bets again. He has a very big hand that he can't get away from.
maniac? Raise, and he'll 3-bet. Call, and raise the turn.
tight-aggressive? This depends greatly on what he thinks of you, but in most cases, he'll know that you play well. In this case, usually call (if you raise, he'll muck most of the time) and hope he hangs himself again on the turn. Usually raise here if he does, but if you think he has a fair hand (an A) or that he'll bluff again, call and raise the river.
Passive? Raise. Very good hand again, but he may back off just because you call, so take the extra SB now, and settle for 2 more BB.
low-limit? Be less inclined to use deception (most of the time calling is the deceptive move, but against some, raising is).
mid-limit? Use deception slightly more often.

[Trefo]

I would bet against the calling station and then check most likely vs. the rest. Hopefully they have an A and this way they might not think i flopped trips. Unless, i raised preflop in which they might put me on AK.

[STOSH1]

I would check the flop everytime and bet/ raise the turn and river.
Flopped Quad A's once,(AAA flop) on the button (after raising pre-flop), checked the flop.
Everyone's head was on a swivel watching as each of 6 players checked.
Same swivling as I bet the turn, 4 callers, eyeing me carefully but assuming a position raise. Bet the river and
still had 2 callers.
Just wish I had the problem of how to bet quads more often! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif