Bet Size Check

[durron597]

Yes I know this is a bad beat post. But I'm posting it to check to see if I bet the right amounts.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG (t1440)
<font color="#C00000">MP (t2360)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t1410)</font>
SB (t3210)
BB (t580)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls t20, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t80</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP calls t60.

Flop: (t190) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t120</font>, MP calls t120.

Turn: (t430) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t250</font>, MP calls t250.

River: (t930) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: t930

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
MP has Tc 4c (two pair, tens and fours).
Hero has Kh Kc (one pair, kings).
Outcome: MP wins t930. </font>

[bluefeet]

honestly? i goofed and looked at the results. your 'bad beat' declaration sparked my curiosity.

with that said....i STILL would have bet more on the flop. NOT KNOWING WHAT HE HAS...you're facing two clubs on board and an MP caller of your PF raise = Ace could be trouble too. i would take your stand on the pot, say T300 or so. obviously, anything but the scary Ace (or club), you could push on the turn. with the Ace - putting him on it maybe, i would just accept his check. i think you did well not to get trapped on the river.

middle pair + flush draw....PF raise caller + flop call + Ace on turn...probably just one of those hands that didn't pan out.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
honestly? i goofed and looked at the results. your 'bad beat' declaration sparked my curiosity.

with that said....i STILL would have bet more on the flop. NOT KNOWING WHAT HE HAS...you're facing two clubs on board and an MP caller of your PF raise = Ace could be trouble too. i would take your stand on the pot, say T300 or so. obviously, anything but the scary Ace (or club), you could push on the turn. with the Ace - putting him on it maybe, i would just accept his check. i think you did well not to get trapped on the river.

middle pair + flush draw....PF raise caller + flop call + Ace on turn...probably just one of those hands that didn't pan out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I nearly always bet 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot. When is it right to overbet?

Note that I have the Kc.

[bluefeet]

[/ QUOTE ]

I nearly always bet 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot. When is it right to overbet?

Note that I have the Kc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Simple answer from one that doesn't slowplay much: "...when you don't want to give great odds to a caller".

He's getting 3:1 for his 1.9:1 flush draw. T300 makes it.......well.....not as good /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Honestly, your K /images/graemlins/club.gif doesn't do much for me. If he hits the club on the turn and pushes...are you calling with a 1-card-to-come flush draw? (if you KNEW your KKs were already dead to his flush?).

Plus if you put him on an Ace w/ the PF call, you're now up to 12 cards that could crack your K's. Baring a perfect/chip-extracting/non-drawing board...I'm content with taking it down on the flop. I guess that is my 'general' rule for when I overbet.

Ps. I find that OVERBETTING AA/KK PF will often encourage a push from an underpair holder /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[BradleyT]

I don't like overbetting. It gives away your hand when it comes time to make a continuation steal bet and you all of a sudden bet 120 instead of your usual overbet of 250.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like overbetting. It gives away your hand when it comes time to make a continuation steal bet and you all of a sudden bet 120 instead of your usual overbet of 250.

[/ QUOTE ]

That, combined with the fact that he may fold a 7 here w/an over bet makes me unsure as to which line of reasoning I like better.

[bluefeet]

Hi BradlyT

I guess the point of my overbet line is that there will be no continuation/steal bet forthcoming.

In this hand...if the turn is not a club or an Ace, I'm pushing. If it is a club or Ace, I'm check/folding. Possible to push even the Ace -- assuming he has Ax and will reconsider his commitment to your now looking like AK.

I do appreciate your ideas - I'd love to know the optimal way to deal with this degrading situation. I guess my logic (possibly flaud) is this: Less than perfect flop. I have 'x' amount to bet on flop &amp; turn - quite possibly being worse off than I was at the flop. Why not spend 'x' completely on the flop now. If hand improves (draw is dead, KK is safe), I can hit the turn hard.

[durron597]

bluefeet, are you expecting to be called with a 7? Maybe a hand like 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif

[bluefeet]

lol...i'm getting WAY tired!!

sorry guy, who would be calling what again...with 7, maybe 87 /images/graemlins/spade.gif? you've lost me. i certainly don't mind the redundancy - please rephrase for me....

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

lol...i'm getting WAY tired!!

sorry guy, who would be calling what again...with 7, maybe 87 /images/graemlins/spade.gif? you've lost me. i certainly don't mind the redundancy - please rephrase for me....

[/ QUOTE ]

If MP has 8s7s, do you think he will call the overbet?

If not, then what's the point of betting at all? To take down the small pot?

[bluefeet]

i think he does, and i'm very happy for it!
i'm putting him all-in on any non-club (maybe non-ace...should probably add non-board-pairing to the list) turn.

if he hit two pair? happens. you bust.
_____

if he doesn't call the flop bet - fine too. decent pot. again, i was removing draw'rs. if i removed a potential cash-cow in the mix...thems the breaks.

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]

Hi BradlyT

I guess the point of my overbet line is that there will be no continuation/steal bet forthcoming.

In this hand...if the turn is not a club or an Ace, I'm pushing. If it is a club or Ace, I'm check/folding. Possible to push even the Ace -- assuming he has Ax and will reconsider his commitment to your now looking like AK.

I do appreciate your ideas - I'd love to know the optimal way to deal with this degrading situation. I guess my logic (possibly flaud) is this: Less than perfect flop. I have 'x' amount to bet on flop &amp; turn - quite possibly being worse off than I was at the flop. Why not spend 'x' completely on the flop now. If hand improves (draw is dead, KK is safe), I can hit the turn hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm talking about other hands in the future. If I make a half pot (or 2/3 or 3/4 whatever your favorite is) bet whether I have KK or AK or a set here I'm near impossible to read. And when I do get called and I have AK it's easy to shut down from here on out and I've only invested a small amount - however I will take down the pot uncontested very often with my missed AK.

Basically my point is varying bet sizes depending on your holdings is bad. And in the case of a missed flop and a continuation bet/bluff, why risk more chips than you need to? Most of the time a T150 bet will have the same effect as a T300 bet in getting an opponent to fold. If they do call or raise you're done with the hand but you will take down many pots uncontested while risking a minimal amount. On the turn I usually turn the heat up a bit (with a made hand like KK here) and bet 2/3 to 3/4 of the pot but shut down with AK unless I've improved or I know that my opponent will fold to a bet (which is rare).

Of course if you're against a known donk or totally unobservant opponents, overbetting isn't bad.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
...And in the case of a missed flop and a continuation bet/bluff, why risk more chips than you need to? Most of the time a T150 bet will have the same effect as a T300 bet in getting an opponent to fold. If they do call or raise you're done with the hand but you will take down many pots uncontested while risking a minimal amount. On the turn I usually turn the heat up a bit (with a made hand like KK here) and bet 2/3 to 3/4 of the pot but shut down with AK unless I've improved or I know that my opponent will fold to a bet (which is rare).

[/ QUOTE ]

No arguement here. I'm all about the 'continuation bet' on a PF raised missed flop (no harm in checking it out of position). My overbet recommendation was specifically for the monster overpair vs. a drawing flop - I personally don't like to "slow play/milk it" much, providing great odds to the drawer with a 1/2 pot bet.

I suspect we're pretty close to the same page - thx for the reply.

[BradleyT]

In a 5 handed game and a heads up pot I'll take my chances that the villian isn't on a flush draw here and is drawing to worse odds than I'm ever giving him even with a 1/2 pot bet.

[Jman28]

If you don't want it to be a bad beat post, don't include the results.

Bet sizes look fine to me.

[Shillx]

I like your betting pattern. Don't worry about a /images/graemlins/club.gif draw in this spot, as he will only have one about 4-5% of the time. This really is a wasted worry imo. I like betting small (I'm a limit player) no matter what I hold since I don't like putting lots of chips at risk with a weak hand. If they decide to come over the top of me, I can fold out cheaper. Same applies to when I have a strong hand. If they decide to come over the top, it really doesn't matter if I bet the pot of 1/4 the pot since the money is going to go in no matter what. When you bet 1/3 of the pot against a single opponent, you are giving him 4:1 which isn't enough to call with most hands unless they have good implied odds. In the SNG structure, your opponent will never have really good implied odds if you raise enough preflop.

Brad

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't want it to be a bad beat post, don't include the results.

Bet sizes look fine to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I normally don't include the results. I did this time because they really don't matter; I just wanted to know if I bet the right amounts. I certainly don't think checking the flop or turn are correct.