bubble idiocy

[liucipher]

*ahem* not that I necessarily did this, but the correct play is to fold here and coast ITM, right? Or am I "supposed to play for 1st" with this mediocre holding?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1770)
Hero (t1420)
UTG (t542)
Button (t4268)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t400</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero?

[curtains]

I would fold.

[TStokes]

I will fold here but I dont plan on coasting into the money there are plenty of better places to put your money in the middle

[Voltron87]

fold, I don't rule out pushing automatically but AT is not a powerhouse hand in that regard.

[EasilyFound]

Good question. I've folded in these spots. I've also pushed in these spots and gotten busted.

BTW, what would you do if you had the button covered or the stack sizes were switched?

[Voltron87]

whats your pushing range if button is doing this often? JJ+ AQ+?

[curtains]

TT is stronger than AQ here IMO. I would definitely push JJ-AA, probably TT+99+AK+AQ too. You have obvious folding equity here, so you can be slightly looser. If your opponent went allin, you'd have to fold AQ+AK and the lower pairs. I believe I'd play JJ-AA only to an allin, and add some hands against the 400 chip raise. (and JJ is very close, maybe it's a fold, depending on the sopshitication of your opponent whom should move allin with any 2. If they do move allin with any 2 its a very clear call with JJ, if not then its a fold. However given that this is a lower buyin tournament, your opponents will be less sophisticated in general)

[elcheapo]

easy fold. Reraise if you can get the raiser to fold which you can't and I think you need at least JJ-AA,AK to even think of a reraise against the big stack in this spot.

[liucipher]

[ QUOTE ]
I will fold here but I dont plan on coasting into the money

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, my thinking was this: "if this bubble lasts a lot longer than I want ..." AT is definitely not that strong but big stacks pushing range is huge here since he has all of us pinned. And if I fold and shorty doubles up then I'm going to have to start stealing like mad to avoid bubbling out. Also big stack would be BB when I'm on button so it makes it that much more annoying.

Still my results-based thinking tells me this is a fold the next time I see it.

What would you guys do if this was 3 or 5 handed? Still fold and wait for a better spot? Or time to take a stand against the evil bully . . .


. . . who had JJ. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Degen]

i call this 30% of the time looking for a piece of the flop.
i call this another 15% looking to do a stop-n-go on most flops.
i push this 40% of the time.
i fold 15%.


Andre

[Degen]

wow dude

them are some tight calling standards


i call AK right here all day and probably TT as well.


I posted a very similar hand curtains and you said i should be calling here with TT (though I was SB and the button pushed).


Andre

[grimel]

If I play the hand people gets to make a fold/all-in choice preflop at least 70% of the time.

[curtains]

If Button pushes any two here, you are throwing away money calling with AKo.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
so i guess you don't like to double up too much?

[/ QUOTE ]

it is my sincere opinion that you post too much while thinking and reading too little.

go run some goddamn icm calculations, and report back. personally in the hand posted, if the button pushed, i'd have to think really hard about my AK, and i'd probably fold it. assuming for instance the button to be pushing any two cards here, using eastbay's calculator, and a 30+3, calling AKs loses $1.23 relative to folding. AKo loses $2.93. against the any 2 hand set, 77 loses $2.02, while 88 wins $.86. these all start you with an equity of $67.32 if you fold the hand, so 88 for instance we're talking about being a .3% ev improver.

tightening the hand set to something like, say any pair, any ace, any king, Q9+ yields more numbers of course:

AKs -&gt; loses $.48
AKo -&gt; loses $1.94
QQ -&gt; wins $2.70
JJ -&gt; loses $.07
TT -&gt; loses $2.33

so yeah, mostly, start doing these sorts of calculation, and realize that a) making every +EV play is not necessarilly right, since well, you may not want to make your variance absolutely skyrocket just so that you can make another 48 cents and b) busting out really sucks, especially when another player is criminally short.

also, for good measure, you "pointed out" to curtains that you had posted some other hand and he had given some other answer. well, to that, i answer, different hands are different hands. a hand "like" another hand is not the same as the other hand, it's like it.

approaching one of the best players and best posters on the board with a line quite as trite and stupid as "i guess you don't like doubling up" means that perhaps you should consider, maybe, that he was right and you were wrong. instead of just oh, assuming that you're always right.

citanul

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]

If Button pushes any two here, you are throwing away money calling with AKo.

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess i could have said it like that, but i was in the typing mood.

citanul

[curtains]

Also I think that TT+99 are signifigantly stronger than AK against any 2 pushes. (And I think 88 probably is also, and maybe 77?)

Oh you already mentioned that above... btw Im very confused, AK does better against the tighter range than the any 2 range? At least that's how I'm reading your analysis.

[citanul]

yah, when i said this:

[ QUOTE ]
assuming for instance the button to be pushing any two cards here, using eastbay's calculator, and a 30+3, calling AKs loses $1.23 relative to folding. AKo loses $2.93. against the any 2 hand set, 77 loses $2.02, while 88 wins $.86. these all start you with an equity of $67.32 if you fold the hand, so 88 for instance we're talking about being a .3% ev improver.

[/ QUOTE ]

i implied, but badly, that 77 loses, while 88 and above all win. AK as i said, loses.

citanul

[Degen]

thank you for the thoughtful reply

i deleted that line



Andre

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
yah, when i said this:

[ QUOTE ]
assuming for instance the button to be pushing any two cards here, using eastbay's calculator, and a 30+3, calling AKs loses $1.23 relative to folding. AKo loses $2.93. against the any 2 hand set, 77 loses $2.02, while 88 wins $.86. these all start you with an equity of $67.32 if you fold the hand, so 88 for instance we're talking about being a .3% ev improver.

[/ QUOTE ]

i implied, but badly, that 77 loses, while 88 and above all win. AK as i said, loses.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

No yes but Im confused...it seems like you say AK loses 2.50 to an any 2 allin, but less to a tighter range.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yah, when i said this:

[ QUOTE ]
assuming for instance the button to be pushing any two cards here, using eastbay's calculator, and a 30+3, calling AKs loses $1.23 relative to folding. AKo loses $2.93. against the any 2 hand set, 77 loses $2.02, while 88 wins $.86. these all start you with an equity of $67.32 if you fold the hand, so 88 for instance we're talking about being a .3% ev improver.

[/ QUOTE ]

i implied, but badly, that 77 loses, while 88 and above all win. AK as i said, loses.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

No yes but Im confused...it seems like you say AK loses 2.50 to an any 2 allin, but less to a tighter range.

[/ QUOTE ]

yah, that's what i said. i'm just tellin you what the calculator said man.

i'm assuming it's because all the rag hands run better against AK than do the many hands in the tighter range that are dominated by ak. the tight range has pairs, some queens, but mostly hands that are dominated, the other one has a whole pile of hands that while crappy, have to run better than the domination. for instance, and i'm sure you know this, AKc v A7d =&gt; 70.7/29.3 AKc v 7d 2h =&gt; 69.3/30.7. i'm assuming it's a big pile of that sort of stuff, and the inclusion of many hands that are not so crappy as 72o (like T9s, which is a 61/39 dog) that brings the numbers in. like you said, some things run better against wider ranges, some better against tighter ranges. at least that's what i am working with.

citanul

[curtains]

Yeah you might be right, I'm just surprised, I didn't know this..

(Yeah I ran it myself, AK runs better against the slightly tighter range). btw this is different than some of the things I've posted in the past, in which hands sometimes do better against looser ranges when first in pushing. I haven't had as much experience playing around with hands that do better calling allin's against tighter ranges.

[ZebraAss]

Very Good Thread