10-20: Raising on every street?

[JTG51]

I'm in LP with A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

MP player open raises. He doesn't qualify as a maniac, but can get a little over aggressive sometimes. MP2 calls and I 3 bet. Everyone else folds. MP and MP2 call.

Flop: K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/club.gif

MP bets, MP2 folds and I raise. MP calls.

Turn: [K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/club.gif ] 6 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

MP leads into me again. I raise again. I'm reasonably confident that he has a K with a face card kicker.

River: [K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 6 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif ] J /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

MP leads into me again! Maybe he hit his kicker. Maybe I misread him. Maybe he really is a maniac. Who raises for a 4th time, who calls?

Results to follow.

[JTG51]

I hate to do this, but I'm bumping this to the top. It got burried so far right after I posted it that no one even read it. If no one responds, that's one thing, I just want to let some people read it.

This is the kind of thing that inspired my post on the news, views, and gossip forum about the new format.

[Ed Miller]

You can't raise him again. You've told him what you have by your turn raise, and he's betting into you again. I put him on KJ.

[Dynasty]

Be patient. You only made this post a couple hours ago. People will read and respond to it.

Your opponent seems to be saying he can beat AA but I'd usually raise the river anyway. He'll definitely call and be hardpressed to 3-bet.

[JTG51]

Yeah, I should be more patient, you are right.

I don't mind if no one responds (well, I don't like that either). I was just concerned that only 6 people had read it and it was burried under 7 or 8 other posts.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

I would just call the river here. If he's betting into you on the end, I suspect he's got you beat. Babe

[mikelow]

I hate this too. Way back when (only 5 days ago) I thought this was a bug. Maybe this feature can be made optional.

Another case of not being careful of what you wish for.

[lysis]

This hand seems pretty straight-forward to me. The logical read suggests that the player in MP has KJ, and you should only call the river at most, if not fold to save yourself a bet.

His lead bet on the flop is exactly what anyone of us would do. When you raise him he now knows that you either have AK, AA or Adxd. That's why he leads on the turn, to make sure you pay if you're drawing to diamonds.

His bet on the river is strictly for value, he knows you hold either AK or AA.


Of course his play would also make sense if he has AA or KK.

To answer your question, I would not raise a 4th time.

I would make a crying call at the river unless the following 3 conditions have been met then I would raise
1) he's believer "I have to call the river bet anyway, so I might as well bet myself)
2) he would pay you off with something like KQ when you raise the river
3) he usually tries for a check-raise w/ a big hand such as a set or top 2 pairs

[Ulysses]

I'd call and expect to see KJ, with a small chance of 55. Hope you raised and got called by KQ, though.

A few thoughts...

Everyone really seems to feel that our Hero is beat when bet into the river. Isn't all raises partly for information, and wouldn't just about everyone consider it *huge* information that our opponent wants to be into us again after our hero has shown immense strength on ALL streets.

However, there is (as always) the different flip of the coin. Our hero could be holding something like 77 (middle pair and an open-ended straight draw) and be raising the turn as a combination of a semi-bluff/free-showdown move with lots of outs to fall back on. Therefore, there could be some value for the opponent to bet a hand such as KQ into the pre-flop raisor knowing that the chance of getting raised on the end is very small (interestingly, Dynasty advocates a raise by our Hero on the river), and that he will check-call a bet anyway, and this bet is definitely coming from AA or AK. I know several decent players who occasionally use the "bet-self-when-I-will-call-anyway" move on the river. I also know other players who have actually folded the winner in these spots, excactly because this move is so surprising and seems so strong.

One last thing I notice is that people seem to be putting the opponent here on K-J for rivered top two. It would be terrible river play to bet K-J straight out here. After making a dubious call of the turn-raise, the least he can do is make the obvious choice of attempting (and very often succeeding) to check-raise the river.

In family pots, I like to bet out when I make my hand, but when I get this kind of action heads-up and still can't get rid of my hand, I sure as hell will check-raise when a non-threatening card falls on the river that improves my hand.

The river bet seems suspect to me. I say pay off, expect to see AK, KQ or a bluff/very weak hand (such as 76), with pocket Jacks being a remote possibility. For some reason, I think a rivered set of Jacks will be less inclined to check-raise the river than KJ. It's just a feeling I have.

lars

How often do you make the play " raise the turn w/ a possible 2nd best hand when having position and check down the river unless improved"? The more often you make this play, the more often you can value-raise the river with a solid hand.

[JTG51]

That's a really good point YS. I do make that play quite often. I'm not sure if this player knew that though. I don't think I had played with him before, and he hadn't been at the table very long.

Time for you to get yourself registered. You aren't going to be able to post anymore without it.

[JTG51]

I just called the river and like everyone else expected my opponent to have KJ. He turned over KTo and I took down a big pot.

Thanks for the comments.

[bad beetz]

I think on the turn he's saying, OK, that was a blank, I'm not giving you the free card you were trying for because I have top pair.

On the river, I think he's saying, OK, that was a blank, I'm not giving you the free showdown you were trying for because I have top pair.

KJ, unless he or she is a bad player, would obviously check-raise the river. My quess would be KQ, it's the only hand that could be played like this, I think. Even in my first week of playing poker, I think I would have check/raised KJ in on the river in this situation. I think he's got some really strange read on your hand and can't let it go, and every time you don't "get there" he bets into you.

Even so, I still couldn't bring myself to raise the river, he's just shown too much strength