Never try and be nice to the fish (WARNING: Rant) [Archive]

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NYCNative

05-14-2005, 12:19 PM

So I'm in a $5 SNG. Some player loses a very early all-in to a set of Jacks and complains about how he just lost with a J in his hand to someone with two Jacks in their hand. I folded crap so I didn't see the play exactly so I checked the hand history expecting to see an epic AJ vs. JJ confrontation. Instead, this is what I saw:[ QUOTE ]
Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t1815)
WhyMeUB (t955)
UTG+1 (t2345)
NYCNative (t1445)
MP2 (t3230)
CO (t2810)
Button (t1120)
SB (t1280)

Preflop: NYCNative is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
WhyMeUB calls t30, 5 folds, SB raises to t120, 1 fold, WhyMeUB calls t90.

Flop: (t270) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, WhyMeUB bets t270, SB raises to t1080, WhyMeUB raises to t1350.

Turn: (t2700) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)

River: (t2700) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: t2700

Results below:
SB has Jh Jd (three of a kind, jacks).
WhyMeUB has Jc 7c (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: SB wins t2700.

[/ QUOTE ]The guy is still chatting and I suggest, very nicely, that he shouldn't have called a 4BB raise with J7. He said he was chasing the flush. I then asked, again very nicely, why he was pushing the way he did post-flop when he only had top pair with a crappy kicker and a draw to a medium flush. I was trying to help someone learn from a mistake, try and be a nice guy.

He immediately says "I don't need your advice." I resisted the urge to say "Um, yes you do" and instead went about trying to ignore him. And he wouldn't shut up.

His wit and wisdom included excuses about how he was just "slumming it" in a $5 SNG, how he's been playing for 20 years and how much money he makes playing poker. I can't C&P UB chat or I would post it all. It would be great for a few laughs. Or tears, whatever.

Then I lost the tournament on this hand:[ QUOTE ]
Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t40 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t420)
Button (t2250)
NYCNative (t1750)
BB (t3320)
UTG (t2965)
MP1 (t2065)
MP2 (t2230)

Preflop: NYCNative is SB with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t40, 1 fold, MP2 calls t40, 2 folds, NYCNative completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t160) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
NYCNative checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets t40, NYCNative calls t40, BB folds, UTG folds.

Turn: (t240) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
NYCNative checks, MP2 bets t240, NYCNative raises to t960, MP2 raises to t1200, NYCNative raises to t1920.

River: (t3360) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: t3360

Results below:
NYCNative has 4h 8d (two pair, eights and fours).
MP2 has Ac As (three of a kind, aces).
Outcome: MP2 wins t3360.

[/ QUOTE ]And then he started berating me about my horrible play and laughing at me. I trid to explain to him the vast difference between the way I went out and the way he went out and he was still typing about how I was outplayed (Or course, Mr. Pocket Aces played it perfectly, letting the small blind guy with crap limp his way from an 80% dog to an 80% favorite) and how he would crush me in the $20 SNGs.

I finally left, sick of arguring (and sick of annoying those still playing the tournament with the chatter) but it is just so irritating. I saw a shitty play and I simply tried to offer some advice. I love advice like that. Hell, I'm sure that I'll be told I played my hand lousy, and that's fine - you get better when corrected.

And all I got for it was being blasted by a twit who thought top pair, 7 kicker was gold, with a weak flush draw.

Now, who will be the first poster to say "Forget talking to the fish; this is why you don't play $5 SUGs!" /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

cleinen

05-14-2005, 12:28 PM

Why are you completing with an 84o?

Freudian

05-14-2005, 12:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The guy is still chatting and I suggest, very nicely, that he shouldn't have called a 4BB raise with J7.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not, top pair and flush draw is a perfectly fine hand to play here on the flop. Loose preflop but thats how many like to play. Nothing remarkable there.

[ QUOTE ]
He immediately says "I don't need your advice." I resisted the urge to say "Um, yes you do" and instead went about trying to ignore him.

[/ QUOTE ]

It may be hard to accept but he really don't need your advice. And that has zero to do with his playing ability.

NYCNative

05-14-2005, 12:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you completing with an 84o?

[/ QUOTE ]Because I am putting $20 extra into a $160 pot with three other limpers. Any two cards here against four players is not getting bad pot odds and I'm already in for half of it.

jwesty5

05-14-2005, 12:40 PM

If you want to educate people do it here. Rarely if ever do I comment playing SNG's. Play SNG's to win and not to get affirmations from other players for giving quality advice.

NYCNative

05-14-2005, 12:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why not, top pair and flush draw is a perfectly fine hand to play here on the flop. Loose preflop but thats how many like to play. Nothing remarkable there.

[/ QUOTE ]My main comments were about his post-flop play. It was abysmal, even if we do give him the loose pre-flop call.

KingDan

05-14-2005, 12:43 PM

Generally its the fish who try to educate you. I love the fish berating you for the 'loose' calls when the blinds get high, getting odds for almost any 2.

NYCNative

05-14-2005, 12:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to educate people do it here. Rarely if ever do I comment playing SNG's. Play SNG's to win and not to get affirmations from other players for giving quality advice.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree 200%. Live and learn. I think I'll just keep chat off from now on. I do have the occassional pleasant banter and good sportsmanship, but I don't think I'll miss it compared to the jerks and sore losers and whiners...

Big Limpin'

05-14-2005, 12:46 PM

it was not abysmal. in this case, hes a 30/70 dog, but he does not know that. If i flop TP/4flush, and get action, im trying to get all my money in there too. Im not saying i never make mistakes, but im not "abysmal" at this game.
He played fine, but was unlucky to run into a monster.

edit: at the 5+1s, you should have no problem finding a dozen better places to give fish lessons.

Al P

05-14-2005, 12:52 PM

His play isn't bad. He's a favorite over pocket aces (no A/images/graemlins/club.gif) on that flop.

Freudian

05-14-2005, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
His play isn't bad. He's a favorite over pocket aces (no A/images/graemlins/club.gif) on that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. If we are to assume our opponents have top set the vast majority of my plays are "abysmal".

NYCNative

05-14-2005, 12:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He played fine, but was unlucky to run into a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]Had he got away with his limp, I would agree. However he already was faced a 4BB raise. And then his pot-size post-flop bet gets raised where he has to be all-in. Being raised twice doesn't raise any eyebrows? It would for me and that's not hindsight talking.

valenzuela

05-14-2005, 12:59 PM

1)you suck.
2)youre a jerk.

NYCNative

05-14-2005, 01:02 PM

Pot. Kettle.

HTH HAND

valenzuela

05-14-2005, 01:06 PM

The first requierement to be considered a winning player is to NOT teach the fish, thereby u suck. By being unfriendly to a fish and making him feel bad ure a jerk.

Al P

05-14-2005, 01:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He played fine, but was unlucky to run into a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]Had he got away with his limp, I would agree. However he already was faced a 4BB raise. And then his pot-size post-flop bet gets raised where he has to be all-in. Being raised twice doesn't raise any eyebrows? It would for me and that's not hindsight talking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, his preflop play is horrible but postflop isn't bad.

But anyway, I never understand why people want to educate the players they're trying to take the money from. Do you want to take less of their money or something?

NYCNative

05-14-2005, 01:11 PM

I think it's surreal that putting $20 into a $160/four limper pot with any two cards is a questionable play yet calling a 4BB raise with a suited J7 is considered a fine play. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

NYCNative

05-14-2005, 01:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The first requierement to be considered a winning player is to NOT teach the fish, thereby u suck.

[/ QUOTE ]Well, at the home games I play, we have a group of friends who push each other to get better. I'm not playing a $5 SNG for my rent, I'm playing it for fun and he is already out of the tournament and I'll probably never see him again.[ QUOTE ]
By being unfriendly to a fish and making him feel bad ure a jerk.

[/ QUOTE ]I was not unfriendly until he got defensive and started attacking me - did you see the chat transcript? It would be unfriendly, for example, if I pointed out how your English skills are on par with a potten plant.

valenzuela

05-14-2005, 01:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It would be unfriendly, for example, if I pointed out how your English skills are on par with a potten plant.

[/ QUOTE ]
No it wouldnt, Im from Chile and my native language is spanish /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

NYCNative

05-14-2005, 01:19 PM

True. It would be an insult to potted plants everywhere.

Skipbidder

05-14-2005, 01:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The guy is still chatting and I suggest, very nicely, that he shouldn't have called a 4BB raise with J7.

[/ QUOTE ]

I stopped reading here. It is understandable that people would have the to educate others at the poker table. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. It is a form of tilt.

adanthar

05-14-2005, 01:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's surreal that putting $20 into a $160/four limper pot with any two cards is a questionable play yet calling a 4BB raise with a suited J7 is considered a fine play. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You made up the difference by calling the flop.

cleinen

05-14-2005, 01:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You made up the difference by calling the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with that. Ok so you complete. I think the on flop you can't check/fold to is 2 pair or the perfect 567.

Newt_Buggs

05-14-2005, 02:59 PM

If you're ever really bored, defend the fish at the table. trust me, its fun. Just make sure that you use the worst logic possible.

Paul2432

05-14-2005, 07:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I was not unfriendly until he got defensive and started attacking me - did you see the chat transcript?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is where you go wrong. In poker, if you want to make the most money possible, you can't let stuff like this get to you. When attacked by a bad player, the best response is to say nothing, or perhaps "lol".

No doubt you are well within your rights to defend yourself. No one would disagree. If your objective is to make the most money possible, then it is a mistake.

Paul

beeyjay

05-14-2005, 07:22 PM

you sound like you have a gross misunderstanding of poker.

Scuba Chuck

05-14-2005, 08:36 PM

OK, OK, I'll be first...

[ QUOTE ]
"Forget talking to the fish; this is why you don't play $5 SUGs!"

[/ QUOTE ]

freemoney

05-14-2005, 09:04 PM

bro, you are the fish