OESFD on the flizzy [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

private joker

05-12-2005, 12:57 AM

I think I played this hand properly but I'm a bit rusty so I'm posting to make sure... First orbit at the table; I have no stats on either opponent.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, 4 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (11 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets (obviously)...

I'm pretty curious about the flop -- since I want to sweeten the pot for my monster draw, does anyone smooth-call the bet from my right? What's an alternative line here from the way I played it?

imported_leader

05-12-2005, 01:02 AM

Standard. I don't like calling the flop. Way to much equity for that.

jason_t

05-12-2005, 01:09 AM

Seems standard as hell.

Goodnews

05-12-2005, 01:14 AM

Played it find imo, in fact you managed to pull in an extra bet. The obvious exception is that you know for sure that SB or BB is gonig to raise.

blackize

05-12-2005, 01:20 AM

You have to raise that flop to find out where you are. Since they flat called you can bet nobody has the FH yet and that if anyone has a 9 their kicker is weak.

chesspain

05-12-2005, 01:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You have to raise that flop to find out where you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising for information is highly overrated.

[ QUOTE ]
Since they flat called you can bet nobody has the FH yet and that if anyone has a 9 their kicker is weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think that anyone who flopped a full house would go crazy and possibly kill their later action?

elindauer

05-12-2005, 01:26 AM

Pretty dangerous to raise the turn. BB has made it clear you are behind, I'm surprised he didn't 3-bet. I just call the turn.

The flop raise is fine. If you drop the other guys, you give yourself a chance to win the pot unimproved, which is worth 1 SB. If they call, hey, you've got the big draw. The more the merrier.

Good luck.
Eric

private joker

05-12-2005, 01:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty dangerous to raise the turn. BB has made it clear you are behind

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious?

jason_t

05-12-2005, 01:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty dangerous to raise the turn. BB has made it clear you are behind, I'm surprised he didn't 3-bet. I just call the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate. I don't see this.

elindauer

05-12-2005, 01:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You have to raise that flop to find out where you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. You have queen high. You are drawing. You don't have to raise to know this. Raising is fine for other reasons (deception... you may win the pot unimproved, value... you have a big draw with high pot equity).

[ QUOTE ]
Since they flat called you can bet nobody has the FH yet and that if anyone has a 9 their kicker is weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh man. Terrible hand reading. Maybe the small stakes games are playing much easier these days, but in my experience the big blind calling 2 cold = 9 quite often. A slowplayed fullhouse is a perfectly reasonable holding for this action, especially when he bets out on the turn.

my 2 cents.
Eric

chesspain

05-12-2005, 01:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pretty dangerous to raise the turn. BB has made it clear you are behind

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious?

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my first thought as well regarding the BB, since he saw a free flop, checkcoldcalled the flop, and then bet into two players on the turn when he had to know he had zero chance of taking it down right there.

I'm not saying calling is better than raising--but I'm not taking BB's turn bet lightly.

elindauer

05-12-2005, 01:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pretty dangerous to raise the turn. BB has made it clear you are behind

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. In fact, I'm surprised this isn't obvious to everyone. What do you think he has? What hand calls 2 cold on the flop and then makes sure the turn gets bet? You think he just called with a jack on the flop, and then decided to bet when the overcard hit? No, I don't think so.

I'd say he has a 9, straight or fullhouse often. I'd say AQ, KQ, QT, Q8 the rest of the time. Against this hand range, you are behind, and you will often be 3-bet, which you'll have to call.

Good luck.
Eric

elindauer

05-12-2005, 01:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pretty dangerous to raise the turn. BB has made it clear you are behind, I'm surprised he didn't 3-bet. I just call the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate. I don't see this.

[/ QUOTE ]

On what range of hands do you put the BB after his flop coldcall? Of these, which do you think bet out on the nonspade overcard turn?

-Eric

private joker

05-12-2005, 01:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Ugh. You have queen high. You are drawing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have massive equity in this pot. I will win more often than most other hands that are out there. Even against quad 9s I have 2 outs. I have an OESFD which has a better chance of improving than AA on this board. My raise is clearly for value, but I want to pump this pot on the flop.

Willluck

05-12-2005, 01:39 AM

I think the flop raise sometimes clears the field, which is the last thing you wanna do, but in your case it worked out.

jason_t

05-12-2005, 01:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pretty dangerous to raise the turn. BB has made it clear you are behind, I'm surprised he didn't 3-bet. I just call the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate. I don't see this.

[/ QUOTE ]

On what range of hands do you put the BB after his flop coldcall? Of these, which do you think bet out on the nonspade overcard turn?

-Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that you may be fearing monsters.

elindauer

05-12-2005, 01:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Ugh. You have queen high. You are drawing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have massive equity in this pot. I will win more often than most other hands that are out there. Even against quad 9s I have 2 outs. I have an OESFD which has a better chance of improving than AA on this board. My raise is clearly for value, but I want to pump this pot on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, what a great point. Why didn't I think of that? Oh yeah, I did. Here's the rest of the quote you left out.

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh. You have queen high. You are drawing. You don't have to raise to know this. Raising is fine for other reasons (deception... you may win the pot unimproved, value... you have a big draw with high pot equity).

[/ QUOTE ]

Sheesh.
Eric

private joker

05-12-2005, 01:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Man, what a great point. Why didn't I think of that? Oh yeah, I did. Here's the rest of the quote you left out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't arguing with you, genius. I was building on your point to show the "raise for information" guy that I wasn't raising for information. Sheesh!

elindauer

05-12-2005, 01:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On what range of hands do you put the BB after his flop coldcall? Of these, which do you think bet out on the nonspade overcard turn?

-Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that you may be fearing monsters.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that you may be trying to put your opponent on a hand you can beat. But then, you haven't actually given any hands for this guy yet, so it's hard to say.

If you raise the turn, you are basically saying that you think the BB is an idiot. Now, this is a small stakes game, so maybe he is. However, this read was not offered to us, so my default assumption is that he's somewhat reasonable. In this case, I don't like raising the turn.

-Eric

SippinSoma

05-12-2005, 02:02 AM

Why did you want to pump the pot on the flop, risking knocking out SB and BB?

private joker

05-12-2005, 02:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you want to pump the pot on the flop, risking knocking out SB and BB?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pumping the pot means getting as many bets in, not knocking people out. Raising is different from pumping, but they're not mutually exclusive. Now you see why I posted this hand -- when you want to pump a pot, do you raise hoping to get 3-bet? Or do you smooth-call to entice other calls and hopefully a raise?

SippinSoma

05-12-2005, 02:14 AM

With a draw this strong, the latter.

EDIT: Q, what hands 3-bet you here? Typical 3/6 donk with 9X will smooth call and hit you again on the turn.

private joker

05-12-2005, 02:17 AM

But it would also be nice if I folded out hands like KQ. Cleans up my overcard (although I plan to win with one of my 15 straight and flush outs).

Nick C

05-12-2005, 02:17 AM

I'm not crazy about the turn raise. I think BB quite likely has KQ or better (though another worse QT is also possible). Something like J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif also can't be ruled out, but for the time being I think you're quite likely drawing, although you do potentially have a lot of outs even if you are.

Ugh. This is very confusing.

private joker

05-12-2005, 02:23 AM

You may be right, Nick, and I'm questioning the turn raise as much as the flop raise, but a) I have top pair which might be the best hand; b) against trip 9s I have 15 outs to the probable best hand with a straight or flush, and against a better Q I have 3 outs to a better 2 pair, and against the unlikely overpair I have 2 outs to a queens-full boat; c) if I'm against a boat (which is still unlikely but possible), 2 of those outs improve to a straight flush. All in all, I think my equity is more than the 33% I need against 2 opponents. Even if we discount the spade outs that fill up an opponent with trip 9s, my turn raise could still be for value.

jason_t

05-12-2005, 02:30 AM

SippinSoma

05-12-2005, 02:34 AM

After talking with Jason, I raise this flop also. Every bet I make will be for value, but the pots I win from folding KQ, weak J's (when a T hits), and semi-bluffing are greater +EV than keeping two overcallers and depending on my straight/flush outs alone.

Nick C

05-12-2005, 02:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You may be right, Nick, and I'm questioning the turn raise as much as the flop raise, but a) I have top pair which might be the best hand; b) against trip 9s I have 15 outs to the probable best hand with a straight or flush, and against a better Q I have 3 outs to a better 2 pair, and against the unlikely overpair I have 2 outs to a queens-full boat; c) if I'm against a boat (which is still unlikely but possible), 2 of those outs improve to a straight flush. All in all, I think my equity is more than the 33% I need against 2 opponents. Even if we discount the spade outs that fill up an opponent with trip 9s, my turn raise could still be for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a very difficult question, I think. What the hell is BB betting with now that was also good enough to call two cold with on the flop that also didn't improve to a monster he wants to try to checkraise? Did the turn card scare him enough to make him abandon his slowplay with trip 9's? Did he pick up a draw? Did his gutshot just catch top pair? Is he playing in a straightforward fashion with a straight he just hit, possibly with a straight-flush draw of his own? I don't know. He could also be making some weird desperation stab, for all I know. Or maybe he's got AA or something and is now getting worried.

Basically, all I know is that you've got queens-up at this point, on a very coordinated board, and I don't know what anyone has. UTG+1 just called, so that's encouraging, but maybe he is scared by the possible straight and is now trying to chase a boat cheaply.

I don't know what's best. It's very complicated. And, unfortunatlely, you just joined the table, and we don't have any real reads.

Raising could be the best play. I'm not sure. When I'm in this much doubt, I sometimes just compromise and call (well, obviously you're not folding, so maybe it's not such a compromise). But, in any case, I don't know what's best, really.

private joker

05-12-2005, 02:48 AM

There's also a good chance BB has a J and doesn't want to give a free card (it looks like I could easily be on a free card play with a flush or straight draw).

Nick C

05-12-2005, 02:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There's also a good chance BB has a J and doesn't want to give a free card (it looks like I could easily be on a free card play with a flush or straight draw).

[/ QUOTE ]

That could be, but does he think both you and UTG+1 are looking for a free card?

rmarotti

05-12-2005, 06:08 AM

Standizzle my nizzle?

gaming_mouse

05-12-2005, 07:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Man, what a great point. Why didn't I think of that? Oh yeah, I did. Here's the rest of the quote you left out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't arguing with you, genius. I was building on your point to show the "raise for information" guy that I wasn't raising for information. Sheesh!

[/ QUOTE ]

Eaaaasy, Leonard. Go easy, man.

chief444

05-12-2005, 08:10 AM

Flop raise seems fine.

Turn I think you're probably losing to BB although you may be freerolling. Either way you have a ton of outs even against most 9's and your TP will be good some of the time so I still like the raise. I may be checking the river through unimproved though. Luckily, the river card made that decision for you.

chief444

05-12-2005, 08:16 AM

I'm of the opinion that it's the "idiot factor" that leans this towards a good turn raise. That is, he may not think. He may have A-high. Probably not, but I've seen stranger things. And QT doesn't need to be the best hand very often to make raising the turn correct considering the huge draw hero has to back it up.

brettbrettr

05-12-2005, 01:31 PM

nh.

CallMeIshmael

05-12-2005, 01:54 PM

I agree with elindauer, and would not have raised the turn.

Cold call -> bet looks like you are very likely to be behind here.

Bob T.

05-12-2005, 02:08 PM

There has been a lot of good discussion so far in this thread, so I don't need to add to that.

I just have one thing to add, and that is, if I have a big draw, and have to act immediately behind the bettor, I tend to raise, if I have any overcards because I might improve my overcard outs. But if I don't have overcards, then I am more likely to smoothcall, and hope for a chance to reraise for value.

Rico Suave

05-12-2005, 02:27 PM

Bob:

[ QUOTE ]
I just have one thing to add, and that is, if I have a big draw, and have to act immediately behind the bettor, I tend to raise, if I have any overcards because I might improve my overcard outs. But if I don't have overcards, then I am more likely to smoothcall, and hope for a chance to reraise for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems reasonable. But, does the size of the pot enter into the equation at all? In a raised pot, I am 100% with you about raising with any overcards with my draw....but in a smaller pot I would be more inclined to flat call and keep people in to pay me off, and hope for the chance to reraise. Thoughts?

--Rico

Shillx

05-12-2005, 02:46 PM

The flop raise is good as you know. I'm not a big fan of the turn raise. As many have pointed out, you will often times be losing to trips at this point given the BB's odd line (he could also have a queen or a heart draw or some random crap as well). I don't know exactly how much equity you will have in this spot on average, but I'm sure that it is over 33%. Someone made a comment about protecting your hand with a turn raise...well that really isn't going to happen since you are only in a spot to get value out of it. The best thing that can happen is that you raise, the BB 3-bets with trips and then UTG+1 folds a hand like KQ to free up one half of a queen out for you.

I would much rather play this hand like a draw on the turn. So when I hit my straight or flush on the river, I want the BB to bet into me so I can raise with almost all of the equity.

Brad

meep_42

05-12-2005, 03:01 PM

I like it all the way through. I think BB has QT, JT, or Q8 a lot of the time here, so the turn could go either way.

You have (probably) 15 outs with 2 callers, and top pair -- I think this raise is +EV against an unknown. (I think a FH/trips/straight check-raises the turn.)

-d

SeaEagle

05-12-2005, 03:16 PM

Nice hand.

The flop raise has the possibility of buying you a free card if you need it. The flop is coordinated so there's a good chance SB and BB are folding even if you don't raise, so you may as well raise and at least tie your opponent(s) to the pot if you make your hand.

The turn raise is a must IMO. You're probably behind, but you have enough equity that it's a value bet and there's a chance you'll cow BB into giving you a free showdown if you don't improve. I'd prefer just calling if you were completely on a draw, but you have top pair and unless there's a raise in front of you, you're going to pay a bet to see the showdown anyway.

sfer

05-12-2005, 04:56 PM

I can't be the only person who pretty much autoraises preflop.

Shillx

05-12-2005, 04:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't be the only person who pretty much autoraises preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the limper. If he plays poorly I'd raise. If he is an unknown or plays decently I would just limp along.

meep_42

05-12-2005, 05:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't be the only person who pretty much autoraises preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've started to, but it really depends on the limper for me.

MP1 is a touch early, too, in my weak-tight opinion.

-d

Chris Daddy Cool

05-12-2005, 06:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't be the only person who pretty much autoraises preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

[censored] that. i openraise this utg.

sfer

05-12-2005, 06:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't be the only person who pretty much autoraises preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the limper. If he plays poorly I'd raise. If he is an unknown or plays decently I would just limp along.

[/ QUOTE ]

The typical 3/6 game texture will get you HU most of the time, which to my mind is much more important than the quality of the limper.