I hate these

[istewart]

Another one vs. an unknown. Sorry about these. Last day of whoring, for the moment. I was planning on calling down, FWIW.

Tell me if you do anything differently here and why.

Also, I'd like to know of a good line for this hand if the villain is very TAG, possibly a 2+2er.

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

River: (5.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

[no1super2001]

Preflop is fine. Once you lost the button on the flop, I think you 3 bet this hand for value. That flop requires you protect your hand.

I think I would lead the turn. He could just as easily be calling with an 8. If he raises again, close the betting and release the hand to a bet when the A comes on the river.

[pistol78]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is fine. Once you lost the button on the flop, I think you 3 bet this hand for value. That flop requires you protect your hand.

I think I would lead the turn. He could just as easily be calling with an 8. If he raises again, close the betting and release the hand to a bet when the A comes on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, If you have hero calling a turn raise then you pretty much are comitting him to a showdown.

[aron]

Being out of position I don't think I could make myself do anything else in this hand.
I would play it like you did and feel crippled throughout the entire hand.
That rivercard sucks.
-aron

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you 3 bet this hand for value.


[/ QUOTE ]
I think this will actually take away value on later streets if we scared him with an 8. He'll also fold bluffs, might fold overcard(s) hands, and we'll be shooting ourself in the foot if he caps.

[ QUOTE ]

That flop requires you protect your hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

From what? He'll have 2-3 outs if we're ahead.

[ QUOTE ]

I think I would lead the turn. He could just as easily be calling with an 8.


[/ QUOTE ]
Again, I think this will just result in bad hands folding and better hands raising or calling.

[HajiShirazu]

I would bet the river and get hope to get paid off by his 8 or middle pair, easy fold to a raise.

[Piiop]

I would also bet the river here, folding to a raise. I also would call down if he bet the turn.

It's very unlikely that he'll bluff bet an Ace here since it's likely that you have one. If he has a mid PP, an 8, or nothing, he will almost always check it thru. So basically anytime he bets, it will be with a weirdly played Q or A.

However, he may have an 8 or mid PP that he will call with if he bets. He will occasionally have nothing, but that doesn't matter cuz it's unlikely he would bluff with it anyway.

I can't think any hand a good TAG would play this way.

[@bsolute_luck]

i'd bet the river based on your read of player. if he had the Q, he would have slowplayed it. river card sux, but i'd probably still bet it because i doubt a TAG (possible 2+2er) is playing A8 to an UTG PRF raiser in MP...maybe A8s, but i'd still give it a shot.

[McGahee]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but you might want to make a note that villian isn't as good as you think.
What possible holding could a "TAG" coldcall with PF and use the free card play with on this board, then check behind with a river'd ace?

[ArturiusX]

3-bet the flop and we have a different hand.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the flop and we have a different hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

i thought about that, but if he's a TAG, wouldn't he fold? or fold the turn UI?

[atnels]

Would you have bet the river if it was a blank?

[Buckmulligan]

Anyone like betting the turn and folding to a raise?

[McGahee]

Not really

Do you play Paradise 1/2?

[istewart]

Alright fellas, seems like we got a general consensus.

He had 33 and MHIG.

Piiop: I was more referring to what your line would be if a solid TAG raised you on this flop. I suppose that's even a more clear call down since it would be a weird raise for a Q.

Arturius: Why 3-bet? Won't he just fold hands I have drawing to slim and cap with hands I'm getting pwned by?

[pistol78]

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the flop and we have a different hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you want to do that?
IF you are ahead he folds (if he is solid)
If you are behind you lose more.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
Alright fellas, seems like we got a general consensus.

He had 33 and MHIG.

Piiop: I was more referring to what your line would be if a solid TAG raised you on this flop. I suppose that's even a more clear call down since it would be a weird raise for a Q.

Arturius: Why 3-bet? Won't he just fold hands I have drawing to slim and cap with hands I'm getting pwned by?

[/ QUOTE ]

You say it's a weird raise for a Q... I posted a thread earlier talking about possible trips on the board where they get slow-played to the turn or river. Are you saying against aggression that's the best way to play them?

In other words, is trips waiting until the turn/river here the way to play them? I would probably say for sure if there are over-callers, but I was running into it alot even heads-up.

KO

[deception5]

I think bet/folding the river is best here, but it's difficult to tell if I'm being results oriented /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[this guy]

I like to 3 bet a flop like this (paired flop with no easy flush/straight draws) to get some information. If he caps it, most of the time he's representing at least three queens and you can slow down on the turn. In this situation against an unknown getting 8-1 I would call down. If villian just calls the 3bet I lead a safe looking turn and call down if I get raised.

[johnc]

Here's my take: he called pf w/middle pp, maybe tt. He responded to your flop bet (he might have thought you were taking a stab at it or maybe autobetting) w/a raise. Your call slowed him down and checked behind on the turn. Throw out a river bet b/c he's told you he's got something pretty weak ( or nothing). If he's got the queen then why did he raise the flop and check thru the turn? The only explanation I could see for this is to extract a couple of river bets from you hoping you would lead out in response to his weakness on the turn and then raise? Sounds too sophisticated.
But he checked - weak!

[McGahee]

That's a terrible strategy. I'll let others elaborate.

[Greg J]

I can think of two lines here.

First line: 3 bet the flop, lead the turn if villian calls, check call if he caps. Against a good player this might open you up to raise on the turn if he has a Q.

Second line: Stop and go. Call the flop raise, lead the turn, perhaps folding to a raise here.

Against a TAG: second line, planning to show it down.

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
Second line: Stop and go. Call the flop raise, lead the turn, perhaps folding to a raise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually hadn't crossed my mind till now but for some reason this doesn't seem too bad.

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like to 3 bet a flop like this (paired flop with no easy flush/straight draws) to get some information. If he caps it, most of the time he's representing at least three queens and you can slow down on the turn. In this situation against an unknown getting 8-1 I would call down. If villian just calls the 3bet I lead a safe looking turn and call down if I get raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a terrible strategy. I'll let others elaborate.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'll try:
Not only is this "information" unreliable, you're going to be paying 4BB at least to finish the hand when you could have paid just 3. Also, no where in your strategy do you actually use this "information" you gained on the flop ; you're just calling down no matter what he does.

If you want to know what he has, why not just go to the showdown for 3BB?