Shoving a healthy stack on level 2

[Phoenix1010]

10+1

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t870)
MP2 (t1265)
CO (t1055)
Hero (t760)
SB (t910)
BB (t1795)
UTG (t770)
UTG+1 (t575)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 calls t30, MP2 calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, CO calls t30, Hero is all-in (t760)

This kind of play has been discussed previously with a different hand. What do you think? My other question is this: what hand is better for this play, TT or AK?

[fluorescenthippo]

neither. why are you pushing here? try raising to 125 with AK. call with TT.

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
neither. why are you pushing here? try raising to 125 with AK. call with TT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I'm aware of the default plays. Thanks.

[Seadood228]

I'd say TT because a typical caller in this situation will call with smaller pairs more often than Ax, and you can still have Ax domintaed with TT if the X is small.

And I like the play. I don't see too much difference between doing this on level 2 and say, level 4, except that your FE is probably much greater here. I actually prefer this to, say raising the pot to 125 with your stack. It's all well and good when you hit, but this will be a terribly difficult spot to put in a contination bet if the flop is not favorable, which it won't be most of the time.

[lastchance]

I like limping behind with TT better, because flopped set is really nice here, and in position, you love a bet to you with an overpair.

I don't think pushing is horrible here, BTW, fish are nice.

[Phoenix1010]

Anyone else?

[Nick M]

don't like it this early. Unless someone raises and there is like 3 callers of the raise. Then I might move in with 760 hoping everyone folds, but if one calls me i do have some extra value. But I really don't like gambling this early.

[dfscott]

I like this play and make it myself quite often. You either:

a) take down a nice pot right there
b) win a coin flip or better
c) bust out and start a new one

Two outta three ain't bad...

[fluorescenthippo]

interesting replys. i have learned a lot already. my previous thinking was just the standard raising but i see why that isnt profitable against this many oppenents.

I would rather push the AK. Ax is gonna call most of the time. with TT overcards will call more than underpairs.

[wuwei]

I like the play and definitely use it in this situation sometimes.

I prefer limping with TT here - you've got nice odds to play it for set value, and AK much prefers to see all 5 cards.

[gumpzilla]

The issue isn't that a normal raise couldn't be profitable here. The goal of this kind of play is to draw people in with holdings they might not usually call with because it's such a fishy looking move. It can also pick up a pot right now, which isn't a terrible result when you've already got three or four limpers in. It's high risk, but potentially high reward, as well. But you can keep playing AK in a more conventional fashion, and I don't think you're missing huge opportunities for profit.

[TruFloridaGator]

[ QUOTE ]
I like this play and make it myself quite often. You either:

a) take down a nice pot right there
b) win a coin flip or better
c) bust out and start a new one

Two outta three ain't bad...

[/ QUOTE ]

I do this often to &amp; theres a fair amount of times its better than a CF if you get called, much better.

[TruFloridaGator]

oh..yes limp w/ 1010, but I love the raise AI w/ AK here..

[Matt Walker]

I like this play a lot. I think its highly unlikely that aces or kings are out there. Therefore if you get called you will be a coinflip at worst and I wouldn't be at all suprised to see AQ call. I think AQ is more likely to call than 88 so I would prefer making this play with AK to TT. Also with TT you have to worry about AA and KK being out there more than you would if you have AK since there are more aces and kings unaccoutned for.

The vast majority of times in this situation you are going to take down the pot, and if someone calls oh well, either you double or reload and try again.

[Big Limpin']

I'd do it from in the blinds. Playing the hand straight up will be a win less/ lose more thing if your gonna be out of position, and pushing annuls that problem.

I'm not saying its bad from the button, just its even better from the blinds.

Yes, no, maybe so?

[TruFloridaGator]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd do it from in the blinds. Playing the hand straight up will be a win less/ lose more thing if your gonna be out of position, and pushing annuls that problem.

I'm not saying its bad from the button, just its even better from the blinds.

Yes, no, maybe so?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes so

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd do it from in the blinds. Playing the hand straight up will be a win less/ lose more thing if your gonna be out of position, and pushing annuls that problem.

I'm not saying its bad from the button, just its even better from the blinds.

Yes, no, maybe so?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to say this as well. It doesn't make it worse to push from the button, but yes, it is even more advantageous to do it from the blinds.

[TheCat]

Get called by a small pair and you're 11-10 underdog. If you raise to 100-120, all fold except 44. Flop comes 7TQ you make a 75% pot sized bet 44 folds.
If everybody folds to your big all in you have picked up 4 or 5 blinds but put your whole stack at risk. Wait until the blinds are worth stealing.

Why risk a whooping
For small shopping

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
Get called by a small pair and you're 11-10 underdog. If you raise to 100-120, all fold except 44. Flop comes 7TQ you make a 75% pot sized bet 44 folds.
If everybody folds to your big all in you have picked up 4 or 5 blinds but put your whole stack at risk. Wait until the blinds are worth stealing.

Why risk a whooping
For small shopping

[/ QUOTE ]

...

Important point: There is t165 in the pot by the time the action gets to me. This is a fifth of my stack at this point.

Yes, if an underpair calls me, I am a very small dog. If another ace or king calls me, I am a large favorite. These situations are approximately equally likely. The fact that there is already a fair amount of chips in the pot makes this play +CEV even if I do get called by 44. Because I am reasonably sure that AA and KK are not out there, pushing AK is going to be +CEV no matter what calls me. By the way, I don't know why people seem to believe that 10+1 players regularly call all-in early with hands like 44. My educated opinion on the subject: this does not happen nearly as often as people seem to think; it is much more likely that someone will call all-in with an ace high.

Secondly, the scenarios you provided are not the least bit helpful. Maybe I raise to 100 and KQ calls me and I lose another third of my stack with my continuation bet, when I could have gotten him to fold preflop with a push. See, I can make up one specific situation that helps my case too. There are far too many specific hypotheticals possible for anyone to quantify them all and use them as a basis for making a move reliably. You can make percentage estimates, and maybe EV estimates, but you cannot use one hypothetical situation as a defense for your position on an issue. Everyone, please stop doing this.

Your last two sentences (before your little poem) are the most important. I don't care how many big blinds I'm picking up, I care about what my EV is. The fact that I've put myself in a position to pick up all the chips in the pot without a showdown adds heavily to the CEV of the play. The fact that I am likely to be called by a dominated hand adds tremendously to the CEV. Even the fact that I'll sometimes be called by a coinflip hand while I have an overlay adds somewhat to the CEV.

If you think that making a raise to 100-120 (not a big enough raise in my opinion, by the way) is the correct play, make an EV estimate for both plays and show why one is better. You may be correct, but you haven't shown any compelling evidence.

-Phoenix

[Seadood228]

Well said... although I don't agree about the small pairs not calling... but that's not to say I'm right /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think Thecat's example is being a little optimistic. If I KNEW I'd only get one caller and I KNEW he had 44, then of course I'd make a standard raise.

[mosdef]

the difference between doing it on level 4 vs level 2 is you win 150 (plus the limpers) in blinds in level 4 if everyone folds and you win way, way less in level 2 if everyone folds. so your FE may be "higher", but you are risking getting crippled in exchange for a WHOLE lot less on the table.

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
the difference between doing it on level 4 vs level 2 is you win 150 (plus the limpers) in blinds in level 4 if everyone folds and you win way, way less in level 2 if everyone folds. so your FE may be "higher", but you are risking getting crippled in exchange for a WHOLE lot less on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think of it this way. You're UTG on level 4 with AK and t760, seven handed. Do you think it's worth it to push for the t150 in the pot? If the answer is yes, you should have no problem with the play described in this thread. There's t165 in the pot, you have more evidence that no one has aces or kings because most of your opponents have already acted, and you have greater FE stealing 30 chips from 5 players than you would stealing 100 or 50 chips from one player.