Or am I?

[jason_t]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: I is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">I raise</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">I bet</font>, SB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, I check.

River: (6.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, I call....

[uw_madtown]

BET THE TURN YOU VAGINA.

You've got a gutshot to the nut straight and just picked up the nut flush draw, plus your K and Q outs might still be good. BET THIS FOR VALUE.

[Argus]

I like it. The only question I see here is on the river, and I think going for overcalls is better. In my opinion you are going to get more bets on average from SB and UTG+1 overcalling than you will from raising and having MP2 call. If you have any evidence that SB or UTG+1 would call two cold you're unforgiven for not raising, but I think you know that and chose to seek overcalls.

[Argus]

[ QUOTE ]
BET THE TURN YOU VAGINA.

You've got a gutshot to the nut straight and just picked up the nut flush draw, plus your K and Q outs might still be good. BET THIS FOR VALUE.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is a clear check behind. You most likely do not have the best hand, you were offered a free card, and another bet is not winning you the pot. I think a check behind is best hoping to get bet into on the river if you improve; it also makes players more likely to call a river bet if the turn was checked through. It's unfortunate that the river bet came from where it did, but you can't predict that when checking the turn.

PS It's not the nut flush. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]
You've got a gutshot to the nut straight and just picked up the nut flush draw, plus your K and Q outs might still be good. BET THIS FOR VALUE.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is betting 12 outs with one card to come (26.1%) into 3 players value? You must have all 3 call or all 3 fold to come out ahead. If you get check/raised by EP you've just had to put in 2 bets with the worst hand. I think someone with Ax just made a big mistake by giving you a freebie and it's hard to argue with taking advantage of it. Semi-bluffing at every chance without really thinking these things through is a pretty common mistake made by TAggs. Also, passing in spots like this makes you a tougher target to check/raise.

[Chris Dow]

This is 3/6, take the freaking free card. The river is very close. If there is any chance either of those donks will call 2 cold you should raise here.

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You've got a gutshot to the nut straight and just picked up the nut flush draw, plus your K and Q outs might still be good. BET THIS FOR VALUE.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is betting 12 outs with one card to come (26.1%) into 3 players value?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have something like 14 outs (6 K/Q outs, discounted to 2)... that makes it ~30%, so... meh, maybe for value was a bit much... I still am betting this... I think if you didn't have the gutshot it's an obvious check-behind.

I dunno, more comments. I'm reconsidering but I still really like a turn bet here. Even if I was wrong about it being a nut flush draw because I'm stupid.

jason_t's still a vagina though.

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]
This is 3/6, take the freaking free card. The river is very close. If there is any chance either of those donks will call 2 cold you should raise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'ts 3/6, for god sakes, raise! Ax cold calls 2 here way too often.

[chief444]

I say XXXX the overcalls that you may or may not get anyway. Just raise the river.

[Chris Dow]

Yeah, on the river somehow I like to think I can gamble to get BOTH overcalls and that sounds like fun. Long term raise is looking better. On a sidenote, the poster who wants to bet the turn. I understand why you'd want to bet the turn if you think k/q are semi good. When you hit the K or Q you would much prefer the field to check so you can check behind and take the free showdown. Since you are losing very little of the turn bet because of your mega draw, it's a decent bet if you want to count k/q as partials. I'm more inclined to check and look for my best outs though.

[ErrantNight]

raise the freakin' river, you nit.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
raise the freakin' river, you nit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I chose to go for one or two bets from the overcallers rather than one from the river bettor and subject myself to a 3-bet when I'm bad.

River: (6.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, I call, SB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Results:
UTG+1 has 7s Ac (one pair, aces).
MP2 has 5s As (flush, ace high).
I have Qs Ks (flush, king high).
Outcome: MP2 wins 9.50 BB.

[ErrantNight]

you're not bad here very often, and sometimes you won't get any overcallers to your call, which is terrible, and sometimes you'll get cold-callers when you raise, which is wonderful...

raising &gt; calling &gt; folding here

[Chris Dow]

FWIW jason, don't create monsters. While thinking about the raise here I was thinking about what I would do if 3 bet, the answer is cap. I think giving credit for the nut flush here is way too much.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW jason, don't create monsters. While thinking about the raise here I was thinking about what I would do if 3 bet, the answer is cap. I think giving credit for the nut flush here is way too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't fearing a monster, but for what it is worth, in my experience a 3-bet here usually means nut flush.

[ErrantNight]

in your experience, how often are you getting 3-bet here?

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
in your experience, how often are you getting 3-bet here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Rarely, I believe I'm good here most of the time.

[ErrantNight]

so why aren't you raising, again?

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
so why aren't you raising, again?

[/ QUOTE ]

No overcalls: 0 bets
One overcall: 1 bet
Two overcalls: 2 bets
Raise, he doesn't have flush: possibly 0 bets
Raise, he has worse flush: 1 bet
Raise, he has nut flush: -2 bets

[ErrantNight]

that was HORRIBLE. delete that and post it again. i'm serious. you just said the nut flush wasn't out there. how on earth are you valuing it the same as two overcalls. why are you saying zero bets when he doesn't have the flush. why are you saying 1 bet when he has a worse flush.

that's HORRIBLE HORRIBLE weak/tight trashy thinking. stop it. really. are you running bad, or something? it's like i've stumbled across the micro-limit version of you from your second week of playing.

[Fnord]

You're seriously under-estimating the % of the time Ax calls 2 cold.

Let me put it this way. SSH (and a few other books) talk about this mythical play where on the river a likely weak hand or bluff leads into you and you raise a lukewarm hand to stop a stronger hand from over-calling. Maybe it's just my luck, but EVERY time I've tried this play it's failed miserably by a Top-Pair-like hand over-calling anyway. Hence, I raise here every time because those same over-cold-calls that stopped me from stealing those pots pay me off here.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
are you running bad, or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

I came out of a bad downswing a week ago and then was playing well. But then I had a terrible night of poker. I can't remember the last time I had a session this bad. It came as I'm trying to move up. There is obviously no point in posting the bad beats I had tonight. But I went through my session very carefully and these were three hands I thought I may have misplayed. Obviously the downswing and this session affected me.

[Chris Dow]

Jason, there is no shame in running bad and no shame in being affected by it especially at a crucial time like moving up in limits. You reviewed, you found some bad spots, you brought them here, we echo the opinion that these spots are really really bad. You can't continue to make these plays in the future, you understand that and won't. So the only "problem" you have is what to do in the short term. If the beats and move up are affecting you too much drop back down for a bit and recover the losses/your game. Don't let errant be too hard on ya...

[ErrantNight]

[ QUOTE ]
Jason, there is no shame in running bad and no shame in being affected by it especially at a crucial time like moving up in limits. You reviewed, you found some bad spots, you brought them here, we echo the opinion that these spots are really really bad. You can't continue to make these plays in the future, you understand that and won't. So the only "problem" you have is what to do in the short term. If the beats and move up are affecting you too much drop back down for a bit and recover the losses/your game. Don't let errant be too hard on ya...

[/ QUOTE ]

he knows i love him /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Jason, there is no shame in running bad and no shame in being affected by it especially at a crucial time like moving up in limits. You reviewed, you found some bad spots, you brought them here, we echo the opinion that these spots are really really bad. You can't continue to make these plays in the future, you understand that and won't. So the only "problem" you have is what to do in the short term. If the beats and move up are affecting you too much drop back down for a bit and recover the losses/your game. Don't let errant be too hard on ya...

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for the encouragement. I have tried moving up to 3/6 three times now. Every time has been a complete failure. I destory 2/4. I've destroyed it for months. I have 75k hands at 3.07 BB/100. I can't beat 3/6. I've played 15k hands at -.43 BB/100. It's destroying my confidence and causing me to make horrible plays. Plays I stopped making at 2/4 months and months ago. I've had sessions where I've sat down and played horribly at 3/6 so I stop and I play 2/4 and I play beautiful poker. At 2/4 I feel at ease. I feel comfortable. I feel in control. At 3/6 I think I'm playing scared. What's the difference? Maybe I was called a nit one too many times. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I've talked with people about it. They don't know what to say. I don't know what to do. I didn't want these hands to turn into this type of post. I wanted comments and I wanted to move on. I hope you'll forgive me.

[Chris Dow]

The answer is really simple though Jason. I suspect it is precisely that at 2/4 you know you are a superior player and that your opponents are donkeys. At 3/6 you haven't taught yourself that yet. Just a weird mental block type thing, stay focused it will work itself out.

[ErrantNight]

[ QUOTE ]
The answer is really simple though Jason. I suspect it is precisely that at 2/4 you know you are a superior player and that your opponents are donkeys. At 3/6 you haven't taught yourself that yet. Just a weird mental block type thing, stay focused it will work itself out.

[/ QUOTE ]

wurd up, dow

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jason, there is no shame in running bad and no shame in being affected by it especially at a crucial time like moving up in limits. You reviewed, you found some bad spots, you brought them here, we echo the opinion that these spots are really really bad. You can't continue to make these plays in the future, you understand that and won't. So the only "problem" you have is what to do in the short term. If the beats and move up are affecting you too much drop back down for a bit and recover the losses/your game. Don't let errant be too hard on ya...

[/ QUOTE ]

he knows i love him /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm buying you a beer in Vegas.

[ErrantNight]

what do you mean, take it the wrong way? take a beer the wrong way? how can you take a beer the wrong way? well, i suppose dropping it would be the wrong way... but i wasn't planning on dropping it... i was planning on drinking it!

so rest assured, i'll practice my beer acceptance between now and vegas so that i won't foul it up, promise.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
what do you mean, take it the wrong way? take a beer the wrong way? how can you take a beer the wrong way? well, i suppose dropping it would be the wrong way... but i wasn't planning on dropping it... i was planning on drinking it!

so rest assured, i'll practice my beer acceptance between now and vegas so that i won't foul it up, promise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You took it the wrong way. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[cocked&locked]

For what its worth,

I have had the same problem with moving from 3/6 to 5/10. Like you, I am in a comfort zone at my current limit, but have bad experiences when I take shots at 5/10. When I look at the individual players at 5/10 and the plays that they are making, they don't seem all that much better than the typical 3/6 crowd (players seem looser, if that's possible). Bad luck, timid play resulting from the bad luck, and some inferiority to the top players has produced some losing sessions. I think it just takes a while to get a feel for the game when we move up. The stakes are higher afterall, and initially, the bets mean more to us - whether we like it or not.

I lurk in the SS forum quite a bit, and judging from your posts, I think you'd do well at 3/6. It's that psychological thing that we all battle, though, when moving up. I notice that a lot of the posters here that play 2/4 would do well at 3/6 (judging from their posts and displayed understanding).

[chief444]

Jason,

I'm down like 250BB's over my last 10k if that makes you feel any better. I'm still looking very good overall. [censored] happens. I'm sure you're a winning 3/6 player if you stick with it. 3/6 is full of bad players. Not as much as 2/4 but still lots.

Chief

[Catt]

I'm not a fan of the sappy encouragement threads (I know this thread wasn't intended this way at all), but I'd echo Chris:

[ QUOTE ]
The answer is really simple though Jason. I suspect it is precisely that at 2/4 you know you are a superior player and that your opponents are donkeys. At 3/6 you haven't taught yourself that yet. Just a weird mental block type thing, stay focused it will work itself out.

[/ QUOTE ]

We all hear on these boards how 2/4 is a cakewalk and 3/6 and higher is where real poker is played. This can have a strongly negative effect on your confidence (or anyone else's) because "everyone" talks about 3/6 as tough, full of multi-tabling TAGs, etc. and we value the advice on these forums. I just recently moved to 3/6 (5000 hands &lt; me &lt; 10,000 hands) and there are plenty of poor players, and plenty of multitablers with good stats but who play marginally (at best) post-flop or play decently but very predictably. Allow yourself to acclimate to the changes a bit; review your sessions with as much an eye on your opponents' poor play as your own play -- I think you'll find that you're better than most and once you figure that out you'll start having a bit of fun . . . once that happens, the winrate will take care of itself.