Raisin' preflop with JTo

[private joker]

Villain is loose and very very passive.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (5.33 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

Turn: (3.66 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.66 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 3.66 BB

[shadow29]

I like it.

You could bet the turn, he might fold there. But if you think that he would play an A this way (which I think he would) than this line is good.

[27offsooot]

I would bet the turn

Edit - oh yeah, PF seems standard.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the turn


[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the turn


[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

fold equity

[27offsooot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the turn


[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of opponents will call the flop with garbage, but fold the turn UI. Your jack high isn't looking all that good at SD. I think u can take this down enough. Do you have any read on how often he WTSD?

I suppose that the ace on the flop and his still calling a bet may lead u to believe he will take this to showdown with his mid pp/ crap ace. Usually, u have a lot of folding equity on the flop with an ace against reasonable opponents and when they call on a drawless flop, u're usually screwed. But here, against this opponent, i think firing one more is justified.

[private joker]

What's he folding?

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
What's he folding?

[/ QUOTE ]

considering your read he could be trying to hit his eight and would fold to another shell

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
when they call on a drawless flop, u're [sic] usually screwed.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I'm thinking -- this flop can't be any more drawless.

[ QUOTE ]
But here, against this opponent, i think firing one more is justified.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may be true.

[ErrantNight]

how could you not bet your 4-straight on the river?

(seriously, though, take a stab on the turn, with the intention of putting another bet into this pot only when hell freezes over)

[ErrantNight]

shitty opponents will even drop 9's here... having called a cheap flop bet to see if they could pick up a draw or spike two pair... most of the time they'll call... but the moral of the tale has nothing to do with 9's, and everything to do with being willing to bet the turn when you don't improve in situations like this

[27offsooot]

[ QUOTE ]
shitty opponents will even drop 9's here... having called a cheap flop bet to see if they could pick up a draw or spike two pair... most of the time they'll call... but the moral of the tale has nothing to do with 9's, and everything to do with being willing to bet the turn when you don't improve in situations like this

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I like betting the turn b/c he may fold other crap.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
seriously, though, take a stab on the turn, with the intention of putting another bet into this pot only when hell freezes over

[/ QUOTE ]

What about a T/J river?

[ErrantNight]

what do you disagree with me about? i said bet the turn. i acknowledged the previous statement that doing this will fold other crap, and said, "they may also do this"

i'm not sure what your point of contention is. but tell me, so i can argue with you.

[ErrantNight]

i'm holding the rest of the T's and J's. there's none left for hero.

[NickRegino]

bet the turn

[27offsooot]

[ QUOTE ]
what do you disagree with me about? i said bet the turn. i acknowledged the previous statement that doing this will fold other crap, and said, "they may also do this"

i'm not sure what your point of contention is. but tell me, so i can argue with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

That shitty opponents will fold 9s here.

[ErrantNight]

certainly loose very passives won't... but that doesn't mean that aren't other varieties that will... but whatever... i don't think it's common, and i'm too tired to debate something so trivial...

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
bet the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

I am enjoying the substantial nature of your posts. You've been adding a lot to the discussion.

[27offsooot]

[ QUOTE ]
certainly loose very passives won't... but that doesn't mean that aren't other varieties that will... but whatever... i don't think it's common, and i'm too tired to debate something so trivial...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right and I don't think this point warrants all that much discussion.

[Piiop]

I think, depending on the opponent, that a loose-verypassive opponent will often call the flop with very, very little (even when it is essentially drawless). Thusly, I would bet the turn with the intention of checking behind on the river unless it's a T or a J in which case I will bet. I'd like checking it down more if I had a hand that had some showdown value (like a higher high card or a pair), but then again with those I may be value-betting. It's kind of opponent dependant, but I would bet the turn probably.

[MoreWineII]

I think the question here is do you think you're opponent will fold a hand that beats you (if you bet the turn) often enough to make that bet profitable? If the answer's yes, you should bet. If it's no, you shouldn't.

God, I'm wise like owl.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the question here is do you think you're [sic] opponent will fold a hand that beats you (if you bet the turn) often enough to make that bet profitable? If the answer's yes, you should bet. If it's no, you shouldn't.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that is obviously the question. The problem is, what's the answer?

[MoreWineII]

The 8-ball says...

<font color="red"> Try Again Later </font>

Nah, for reals I usually make this bet, but I can't really explain why. I guess because if I make mistake, I'd rather do it trying to win the pot.

[chesspain]

Joker,

If this is how you're going to play JTo post-flop against this type of opponent (i.e. very loose and very passive), then maybe going for the isolation raise preflop isn't such a great idea.

Seriously, although JTo is a pretty hand, it has little showdown value unimproved, and when you miss the flop you are going to find it nearly impossible to fold out your opponent's overcard(s) or crappy pair. You are then faced with the same quandries on the turn and river if you miss, because you now realize that you can only win by attempting to get him to lay down his (hopefully likewise unpaired) overcards.

I know that the tenor on these boards the last couple of months has been "raise, raise, raise" preflop, but I think that raising w/JTo against a loose-passive EP limper is just a variance increasing move of unknown EV value, unless you know the limper to be weak-tight post-flop and the players behind you to be very tight preflop.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
Joker,

If this is how you're going to play JTo post-flop against this type of opponent (i.e. very loose and very passive), then maybe going for the isolation raise preflop isn't such a great idea.

Seriously, although JTo is a pretty hand, it has little showdown value unimproved, and when you miss the flop you are going to find it nearly impossible to fold out your opponent's overcard(s) or crappy pair. You are then faced with the same quandries on the turn and river if you miss, because you now realize that you can only win by attempting to get him to lay down his (hopefully likewise unpaired) overcards.

I know that the tenor on these boards the last couple of months has been "raise, raise, raise" preflop, but I think that raising w/JTo against a loose-passive EP limper is just a variance increasing move of unknown EV value, unless you know the limper to be weak-tight post-flop and the players behind you to be very tight preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post, and it's exactly the reason I'm uncomfortable playing marginal hands for PFR's. That said, When I do this as a blind steal it seems more effective -- but against an EP limper, it's usually a player who will passively go to showdown. If I were more aggressive I'd be betting the turn and river until he folded, but I thought once he called this flop I wasn't getting him to fold much -- mostly because he showed he wasn't scared of the ace.

There are many flops where I would have bet a turn -- a raggedy rainbow flop, for example, because I could put him on a draw or overcards. But when he called THIS flop, showing he isn't scared of an ace, I thought he had at least bottom pair, and it would be a hand he wouldn't fold for one bet heads up.

[private joker]

Villain showed KQs (of /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) and MHING. It appears I should have bet the turn and would almost certainly have taken the pot.