Sgrena Lied

[Broken Glass Can]

Remember the Italian Communist Journalist who was shot at on the road to the Baghdad airport?

She said they were travelling slowly at 25-30 mph. It turns out that the incident was recorded by satellite. They went some 90 yards in 3 seconds, which is 60 mph, and were only 46 yards (1.5 seconds) from the checkpoint when soldiers finally fired upon them.

She lied, the soldiers acted responsibly and self-defensively. (source: Heard on CBS Evening News)

article (http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2005/04/27/2003252196)

[lehighguy]

I'm not at all surprised, I sensed it from the start. A lot of anti-war people staged stunts to get themselves hurt to advocate thier cause. Most of them got embarrased, like those human shield people that were supposed to stand in front of hospitals and instead Saddam made them stand in front of weapons depots. Her's was probably accidental though, but her response to it was reprehensible.

There seems to be a whole wave of faking things to advocate causes. The women who pretended there was a finger in her wendy's chili when she put it there. The college professor who pretended to be a victim of hate crime even though she spraypainted her own car. People are [censored] up.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Hi,
You are missing the point here. She has already claimed that American soldiers wanted to kill her, which is an insane claim, so she has no credibility.

The point is that US soldiers have been portrayed as very trigger-happy in Europe prior to this and this incident strengthed that impression. Even Tony Blair is distancing himself from US now to avoid political damage.

[lehighguy]

The point is she lied, got a lot of air time, and no ones ever gonna find out the truth. I'm sure there are plenty of crazy wacko Euopeans that do think US troops tried to kill her.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
The point is she lied, got a lot of air time, and no ones ever gonna find out the truth. I'm sure there are plenty of crazy wacko Euopeans that do think US troops tried to kill her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes,
It is not hot news anymore. Haven't seen anything here about the aquittal of the soldiers.

What are the Pentagon propagandists doing? They lose EVERY PR-war.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not at all surprised, I sensed it from the start. A lot of anti-war people staged stunts to get themselves hurt to advocate thier cause.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really believe they risk their lives just to get very little attention from the news?

You have 2 options (well at least, could be more)

- Soldiers trigger happy

- Italians risking their life on purpose just to give a bad image to Americans.

Do you really think the second option is the more logical one?

If you really think so, then we live in different universes.

[sirio11]

Do you know where I can find the information about the satellite?

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you know where I can find the information about the satellite?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is part of the Pentagon investigation report. I guess it must be Googled to be found, by tomorrow there should be a lot of links.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
You have 2 options (well at least, could be more)

- Soldiers trigger happy

- Italians risking their life on purpose just to give a bad image to Americans.

[/ QUOTE ]
- Italian drivers were reckless and the journalist just happened to be a nutjob.

What should the soldiers have done, sirio? A car is speeding towards you at 60 mph. You don't have all day to make a decision and it's a known tactic of the insurgents to use cars like kamikazes. This new evidence colloborates what the soldiers said about the car speeding towards. The soldiers claimed that they signaled the driver in several different ways. What more could they have done in such a short span of time?

[lehighguy]

"Her's was probably accidental though, but her response to it was reprehensible."

I'm pretty sure that was at the end of my paragraph.
Or did you read the whole paragraph.
Or think before you responded.

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]
The point is she lied, got a lot of air time, and no ones ever gonna find out the truth. I'm sure there are plenty of crazy wacko Euopeans that do think US troops tried to kill her.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this offensive, probably because it is so ignorant.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The point is she lied, got a lot of air time, and no ones ever gonna find out the truth. I'm sure there are plenty of crazy wacko Euopeans that do think US troops tried to kill her.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this offensive, probably because it is so ignorant.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW the europeans and australians in my lab refuse to believe this and are firmly entrenched in their beliefs that it was a cold blooded murder, even in the face of now strong evidence to the contrary. these people are some of the best, brightest and most educated individuals in their respective countries.

fim

[partygirluk]

What do they exactly believe happened?

Do they believe that the soldiers saw an unknown car coming fast towards them, panicked and shot too early

or

They knew for sure that the car posed them no threat, but still decided to fire?

[sirio11]

Well, I read your post, but frankly these 2 staments

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of anti-war people staged stunts to get themselves hurt to advocate thier cause

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
"Her's was probably accidental though,

[/ QUOTE ]

don't make sense together, talking about this incident. If you believe hers was accidental, then why the hell you mention the first quote. I'm just trying to make sense of your post.

And yes, I use to think before I respond; that's one of my poker strenghts. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
They knew for sure that the car posed them no threat, but still decided to fire

[/ QUOTE ]

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They knew for sure that the car posed them no threat, but still decided to fire

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Then they are morons and it is unfortunate that you have to work with them.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They knew for sure that the car posed them no threat, but still decided to fire

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Then they are morons and it is unfortunate that you have to work with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

they are all phd's and are all highly intelligent persons with whom i enjoy working. the point of this was not to say that my labmates are morons, just that europeans are given just as skewed a worldview as are americans. also, the ability to effectively understand politics and bias is not always correlated with academic or intellectual achievement.

fim

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]

FWIW the europeans and australians in my lab refuse to believe this and are firmly entrenched in their beliefs that it was a cold blooded murder, even in the face of now strong evidence to the contrary. these people are some of the best, brightest and most educated individuals in their respective countries.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

So do you now agree with me that US has a serious image and credibility problem (many republicans try to deny this)? And have you noticed it has escalated in GWB'precidency?

[sirio11]

I understand that BCPVP, thats why I want to read more about the satellite and the report. Soldiers are under a lot of pressure; and for sure they felt threatened by many things. It just really does not sound logic that the Italians wanted to provoke this. Even negligence by the driver does not make much sense when your life is at stake.

[partygirluk]

Views like that are really extreme, even in Europe. Trust me.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

FWIW the europeans and australians in my lab refuse to believe this and are firmly entrenched in their beliefs that it was a cold blooded murder, even in the face of now strong evidence to the contrary. these people are some of the best, brightest and most educated individuals in their respective countries.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

So do you now agree with me that US has a serious image and credibility problem (many republicans try to deny this)? And have you noticed it has escalated in GWB'precidency?

[/ QUOTE ]

wow.

do you get the fact that you're agreeing that such an image problem is the fault of european stupidity and not american international policy? I even agree with you somewhat in your viewpoint, but this is quite possibly the worst way to ilustrate it that i can think of.

here's an analogy if you don't get the above:

would it be effective for me to say "this guy is a wacko because he doesn't even believe the earth is flat?"

do you get how silly and contrived your post is?

fim

[BCPVP]

Here's another possibility:
-The Italian drivers may have thought that the U.S. troops were more terrorists and were afraid of stopping. The U.S. troops see a speeding car that won't stop when signaled. It may just have been a very unfortunate accident where both sides did the right thing.

Possible?

[sirio11]

Yes, makes sense.

[exist]

US troops don't look anything like terrorists. hard to make that mistake.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

FWIW the europeans and australians in my lab refuse to believe this and are firmly entrenched in their beliefs that it was a cold blooded murder, even in the face of now strong evidence to the contrary. these people are some of the best, brightest and most educated individuals in their respective countries.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

So do you now agree with me that US has a serious image and credibility problem (many republicans try to deny this)? And have you noticed it has escalated in GWB'precidency?

[/ QUOTE ]

wow.

do you get the fact that you're agreeing that such an image problem is the fault of european stupidity and not american international policy? I even agree with you somewhat in your viewpoint, but this is quite possibly the worst way to ilustrate it that i can think of.

here's an analogy if you don't get the above:

would it be effective for me to say "this guy is a wacko because he doesn't even believe the earth is flat?"

do you get how silly and contrived your post is?

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

If intelligent people gets to such a conclusion you have a image problem prior to the incident. That was my point and it is valid.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, makes sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah only if the driver of the car is a complete moron.

Those checkpoints are clearly marked and there arent many terrorist running around with American uniforms on.

[jaxmike]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The point is she lied, got a lot of air time, and no ones ever gonna find out the truth. I'm sure there are plenty of crazy wacko Euopeans that do think US troops tried to kill her.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this offensive, probably because it is so ignorant.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW the europeans and australians in my lab refuse to believe this and are firmly entrenched in their beliefs that it was a cold blooded murder, even in the face of now strong evidence to the contrary. these people are some of the best, brightest and most educated individuals in their respective countries.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

thats really not saying all that much..

[BCPVP]

Just speculating. Can you think of another reason for an Italian agent to be driving at 60 mph towards a U.S. checkpoint? It is literally suicide!

[GuitarMarc]

There is nothing in your link that says she lied. [ QUOTE ]
source: Heard on CBS Evening News

[/ QUOTE ]

I heard you were a moron so I'm pretty sure it must be true.

FYI - they were shot in the back and the US Military knew of their release. They were 1/4 mile from the airport. The attitude on this thread of blindly believing your government and some idiot who lionizes GWB is pathetic.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
Option 3: Italian drivers were reckless and the journalist just happened to be a nutjob.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, nice try, misdirecting this to the usual stereotype of "reckless Italian drivers". As if driving on an Iraqi road is the same as driving through Milan traffic.

That “communist Italian nutjob” is alive now only because her guardian was killed, when he shielded her with his body. He was anything but a communist, in fact. He was a highly competent member of the Italian intelligence services and an experienced hostage negotiator.

I find the whole episode a tragic reminder of how trigger happy the American soldiers have been in Iraq since the first day of military operations. IMO, there can't have been any "conspiracy" to kill Sgrena, as she implies, because the idiocy displayed by the American side all through that war simply is not that high to commit such a PR blunder.

That the American soldiers have been trigger happy is a fact of life. I'm sure there are many people on these pages who are quite "happy" with such an attitude and totally "support the troops" when they fire in all directions and ask questions later, but thousands of Iraqi civilians (and, now, an Italian non-combatant) paid the price for that.

When the American tanks first rolled into Baghdad, Iraqi civilians who found themselves in their general path, unarmed men on the sidewalk, women raising their hands in the universal symbol of surrendering, children peeping out of a door, even dogs, were cut down where they stood by "precautionary fire". A wave of metal thunder, indeed.

The Italians would have a far better chance of surviving if that had been a British roadblock.

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
I find the whole episode a tragic reminder of how trigger happy the American soldiers have been in Iraq since the first day of military operations.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah. What a bunch of crazy cowboys those American Soldiers are. Geez, for the life of me I can't figure out how constant attacks on the soldiers would make them trigger happy. Of course, any jackass with half a mind knows that you let a speeding car that fails to yield crash into you with a bomb laden car before you decide to act. Duh.

[BCPVP]

Cyrus, you couldn't be more wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, nice try, misdirecting this to the usual stereotype of "reckless Italian drivers". As if driving on an Iraqi road is the same as driving through Milan traffic.

[/ QUOTE ]
Contrary to what you believe, I wasn't stereotyping the driver. I should have used the singular form, driver. As in the Italian agent who was driving at 60mph towards an American checkpoint. What is it they say about assuming...?

[ QUOTE ]
That “communist Italian nutjob” is alive now only because her guardian was killed, when he shielded her with his body. He was anything but a communist, in fact. He was a highly competent member of the Italian intelligence services and an experienced hostage negotiator.

[/ QUOTE ]
What does this have to do with anything? I wasn't calling the Italian agent a commie, I was calling the journalist a commie, and rightfully so.

[ QUOTE ]
I find the whole episode a tragic reminder of how trigger happy the American soldiers have been in Iraq since the first day of military operations. IMO, there can't have been any "conspiracy" to kill Sgrena, as she implies, because the idiocy displayed by the American side all through that war simply is not that high to commit such a PR blunder.

[/ QUOTE ]
Frankly, I find your entire response a tragic reminder of just how dumb some lefties are.

[ QUOTE ]
That the American soldiers have been trigger happy is a fact of life. I'm sure there are many people on these pages who are quite "happy" with such an attitude and totally "support the troops" when they fire in all directions and ask questions later, but thousands of Iraqi civilians (and, now, an Italian non-combatant) paid the price for that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting how you describe defending what the soldiers perceived to be an incoming attack as "trigger happy". God willing, if I'm ever threatened with bodily harm, I will also respond with action that Cyrus will deem "trigger happy".

[ QUOTE ]
When the American tanks first rolled into Baghdad, Iraqi civilians who found themselves in their general path, unarmed men on the sidewalk, women raising their hands in the universal symbol of surrendering, children peeping out of a door, even dogs, were cut down where they stood by "precautionary fire". A wave of metal thunder, indeed.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't believe any of this. Care to back this up?

[ QUOTE ]
The Italians would have a far better chance of surviving if that had been a British roadblock.

[/ QUOTE ]
Only if those British troops didn't care for their safety.

[lehighguy]

I try to make note of people that have made posts so utterly stupid I stop reading what they have to say because they are complete biased idiots. You have now joined the list:

Jaxmike
Dead
Cyrus

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]

The Italians would have a far better chance of surviving if that had been a British roadblock.

[/ QUOTE ]

What evidence do you have for this? I think you are being very presumptuous. The American soldiers will have had their terms of combat handed down to them VERY clearly and repeatedly by their supervisors. It is possible that they panicked and shot before they were supposed to, but also possible that they acted perfectly correctly. I like to assume innocent until proved otherwise, and I have seen nothing to suggest inappropriate behaviour from these particular American troops.

[Cyrus]

I already and explicitly stated that, in my humble opinion, there was probably no "conspiracy" on the part of the American forces to kill the Italian hostage.

This leaves two scenarios:

1. The American soldiers at the roadblock behaved in a trigger-happy manner (for whatever reason, even a "legitimate" one such as having recently witnessed a suicide bombing attack),

or

2. The Italians in the car approached the roadblock in the manner and speed of suicide bombers, for some mysterious reason.

Scenario 1 seems way more probable, to me. That's all there is to it.

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't calling the Italian agent a commie. What does this have to do with anything?

[/ QUOTE ] It has everything to do with it.

In charge of the rescue operation and also travelling in the fatal car was a highly trained and experienced hostage negotiator --the subsequent victim of American fire-- who would reasonably have been expected to behave cautiously and without fear. He was not a "leftist" by any stretch of the term; in fact, he was following Italian government orders and policy (which are pro-American). Commentators have speculated that the Italians were speeding and not paying attention to American signals out of "panic" but this does not jive with subsequent events. A leader who allows a situation to get out of hand due to fear will not sacrifice himself to save the hostage.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe any of this [claim that the American soldiers in Iraq have been trigger happy in general]. Care to back this up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure. Sample testimony: "The Americans fired indiscriminately all around them. I heard someone shout in English: 'Shoot anything that moves'. They even shot each other. Two of them were laying screaming in the road." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3212156.stm)

...Hey, some cowboy numbnuts even shot up the tiger in the Baghdad zoo (http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/22306/story.htm).

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The Italians would have a far better chance of surviving if that had been a British roadblock.

[/ QUOTE ]

What evidence do you have for this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very quickly: The areas assigned to the British have been relatively more quiet (although the Brits are dealing with the sensitive and equally volatile Shi'a area, mostly). And the number of civilians killed in similar "accidents" by Brits is relatively far smaller.

The Brits, at least, made sure to have in Iraq as many Arab-speaking personnel as logistically possible. The Americans? Here's Scott Taylor, war reporter from Canada, September 30, 2003 : [ QUOTE ]
"There is definitely an acute shortage of Arab-speaking US Intelligence personnel in Iraq. One gets the impression that they are working not only blind, but deaf and dumb as well. The numerous gaffes that we've seen to date with regards to the mistaken identities of top level Iraqi captives is certainly indicative of this." link (http://www.antiwar.com/orig/deliso87.html)

[/ QUOTE ]

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
This leaves two scenarios:

1. The American soldiers at the roadblock behaved in a trigger-happy manner (for whatever reason, even a "legitimate" one such as having recently witnessed a suicide bombing attack),

or

2. The Italians in the car approached the roadblock in the manner and speed of suicide bombers, for some mysterious reason.

Scenario 1 seems way more probable, to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, trigger happy soldiers seems the most likely explanation.

Still waiting for the satellite report, and how it shows they were driving at 60mph before they were attacked.

[trippin bily]

[ QUOTE ]


When the American tanks first rolled into Baghdad, Iraqi civilians who found themselves in their general path, unarmed men on the sidewalk, women raising their hands in the universal symbol of surrendering, children peeping out of a door, even dogs, were cut down where they stood by "precautionary fire". A wave of metal thunder, indeed.



[/ QUOTE ]

Cyrus this is a BOLD FACED LIE.I say prove it.
I get sick of the anti anerican wackos making up all this bs.
As a veteran i say prove it.
You cannot.
I know it.
You know it.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
It has everything to do with it.

In charge of the rescue operation and also travelling in the fatal car was a highly trained and experienced hostage negotiator --the subsequent victim of American fire-- who would reasonably have been expected to behave cautiously and without fear. He was not a "leftist" by any stretch of the term; in fact, he was following Italian government orders and policy (which are pro-American). Commentators have speculated that the Italians were speeding and not paying attention to American signals out of "panic" but this does not jive with subsequent events. A leader who allows a situation to get out of hand due to fear will not sacrifice himself to save the hostage.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, it doesn't.
And on what do you base your assertion that someone who let a situation get out of hand would be unwilling to sacrifice himself? You're just guessing.

[ QUOTE ]
Sure. Sample testimony:blah blah blah[/quot]
Cyrus, that doesn't back up the assertion you made that American soldiers, upon entering Baghdad, shot unarmed men, women, and children walking down the street. Forgive me for not blindly trusting an Iraqi witness with no indication that he speaks or fully understands english. Nor do I fully trust the BBC, as they've been staunchly anti-war since the beginning.

As far as the tiger-shooting, so what? The tiger attacked a soldier! I say shoot it and eat it. This does nothing to prove your baseless assertion that the Americans will shoot anyone in their path.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


When the American tanks first rolled into Baghdad, Iraqi civilians who found themselves in their general path, unarmed men on the sidewalk, women raising their hands in the universal symbol of surrendering, children peeping out of a door, even dogs, were cut down where they stood by "precautionary fire". A wave of metal thunder, indeed.


[/ QUOTE ]
Cyrus this is a BOLD FACED LIE.I say prove it.
I get sick of the anti anerican wackos making up all this bs.
As a veteran i say prove it.
You cannot.
I know it.
You know it.

[/ QUOTE ]

perhaps you think cyrus is referring to a specific incident? i'm sure they are many... this kind of thing DOES happen in war you know.

what, you don't think the troops cut down a dog or two in the crossfire?

[Cyrus]

I truly could not care less if people choose to ignore reality and "rally by the flag" -- and persist in their distorted idea of patriotism. Here's what an otherwise staunch ally of the American side in the Iraq war has to say on the matter of "trigger-happy Americans" :

[ QUOTE ]
"Excessive use by the U.S. forces of overwhelming firepower has also been counterproductive, provoking antagonism toward the coalition among ordinary Iraqis."

[/ QUOTE ]

"Antagonism"... Don't you just love British understatement?

That's from the April 2005 Report (http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmfaff/36/3603.htm) of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs of the United Kingdom Parliament. The committee, representing the three major UK parties, also said that the heavy-handed policy has led to the slowdown of reconstruction which had strengthened the Iraqi resistance. It added that the occupation forces had clearly failed to curb the violence and said that the new Iraqi government should try to negotiate with the fighters. The Report "concludes that to date the counter-insurgency strategy has not succeeded."

So, the trigger-happy cowboy attitude of the American armed forces in Iraq is worse than wrong; it's a mistake.

[Cyrus]

http://home.eol.ca/~dord/ali04a.jpg


Iraqi boy that survived an "unfortunate" targeting of
civilians by the American military.
How damn unlucky.

[BCPVP]

Still waiting for your proof that Americans shot men, women and children on the sidewalk in Baghdad...

[Arnfinn Madsen]

FYI,
the Italian authorities have stated that they contradict the conclusions.

[lehighguy]

I think the incident itself was an accident. But I think the womens response to it was criminal. We now know from the stalitte data that her car was going to fast, tried to plow through the checkpoint, and soildiers fired at the last possible second. Despite that, SHE ACCUSED THEM OF CONSPIRING TO KILL HER. That's sick and twisted and irresponsible. I think its the culture of anti-war people trying to become victims for a cause that made her do such a rediculous thing. Maybe she didn't stage the incident, but she did lie about what happened and made wild accusations afterwards, the kinduv accusations that get innocent soildiers thrown in jail.

[sirio11]

I agree that her response was not very wise, but I'm sure I'd be mad as hell if somebody shot me by "accident".

[lehighguy]

Granted. The whole thing is rather said. I can understand her reponse, but think it is wrong. Just as a vigilanty killing someone who killed thier family member is wrong, but I understand them.

Still, it would have been nice if cooler heads had analyzed this and looked at evidence instead of making assumptions about what happened based on prejudiced beliefs.

[Cyrus]

It's obvious it ain't good for you.


[ QUOTE ]
Her car was going to fast, tried to plow through the checkpoint...

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah, absolutely, that's what the car was trying to do, plow through an American military checkpoint!

I mean, those Italian men and women in the car were on a suicide pact, for sure. And the Italian journalist is mad because the American soldiers spoiled it for her by not killing everybody in the car.




[ QUOTE ]
Maybe she didn't stage the incident...

[/ QUOTE ] Nah, don't cut her any slack!

I'm sure the crazy Italian journalist staged the incident, from start to finish. Hell, I bet even her abduction was a set-up. To disgrace the Bush administration by forcing American soldiers to kill her later on in a military checkpoint.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
Still waiting for your proof that Americans shot men, women and children on the sidewalk in Baghdad.

[/ QUOTE ] You'll have to make do with these stories, while I bother to check the library about the indiscriminate killing of civilians in the streets of Baghdad as the American tanks rolled in.

Feast yer thirsty eyes.

FoxNews (http://www.pressaction.com/news/weblog/full_article/spinoza11082003) Nov. 7, 2003 from Tikrit, Iraq:

"The U.S. military swept through Iraqi neighborhoods early Saturday, firing at houses suspected to be harboring hostile forces in the wake of an apparent attack on a Black Hawk helicopter that killed six U.S. soldiers."

The report quotes the commander of the 1st Battalion, 22nd Infantry Regimen, Lt. Col. Steven Russell, as saying,
"This is to remind the town that we have teeth and claws and we will use them."

Spoken just like the blackshirts that ravaged Lidice.

[trippin bily]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Still waiting for your proof that Americans shot men, women and children on the sidewalk in Baghdad.

[/ QUOTE ] You'll have to make do with these stories, while I bother to check the library about the indiscriminate killing of civilians in the streets of Baghdad as the American tanks rolled in.

Feast yer thirsty eyes.

FoxNews (http://www.pressaction.com/news/weblog/full_article/spinoza11082003) Nov. 7, 2003 from Tikrit, Iraq:

"The U.S. military swept through Iraqi neighborhoods early Saturday, firing at houses suspected to be harboring hostile forces in the wake of an apparent attack on a Black Hawk helicopter that killed six U.S. soldiers."

The report quotes the commander of the 1st Battalion, 22nd Infantry Regimen, Lt. Col. Steven Russell, as saying,
"This is to remind the town that we have teeth and claws and we will use them."

Spoken just like the blackshirts that ravaged Lidice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you read the link you put here?
Mentions NOTHING about shooting at civilians.
Does mention shooting at houses.
No civilians.
What uniform are the insurgents wearing?
If we kill an insurgent did we just kill a civillian?

[lehighguy]

"She said they were travelling slowly at 25-30 mph. It turns out that the incident was recorded by satellite. They went some 90 yards in 3 seconds, which is 60 mph, and were only 46 yards (1.5 seconds) from the checkpoint when soldiers finally fired upon them."

The satellite backs up my interpretation that they were reckless. What backs up yours.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
You'll have to make do with these stories, while I bother to check the library about the indiscriminate killing of civilians in the streets of Baghdad as the American tanks rolled in.

[/ QUOTE ]
No...I will not "make do". You made a baseless assertion and everything you've posted in regards to that assertion have had nothing to do with that assertion. You can stop slandering the troops any time now.

[ QUOTE ]
Spoken just like the blackshirts that ravaged Lidice.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure you'd love for our boys to walk into each house and ask politely if there are any insurgents inside and if so if they could please put their weapons down. But that's not how a war works.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
No...I will not "make do".

[/ QUOTE ] Funny, I thought that any picture of ripped "enemy" bodies satisfies your blood lust, even ten-year old enemies. Sorry I obliged.

[ QUOTE ]
You made a baseless assertion and everything you've posted in regards to that assertion have had nothing to do with that assertion.

[/ QUOTE ] On the contrary, the assertion is a fact of life. American soldiers entered Baghdad without meeting the anticipated resistance ("Baghdad will be the Iraqi Stalingrad", etc) but, still, they massacred scores of civilians who happened to be in their way.

As to the subject at hand, despite your attempt to hijack this into something else, this is about Sgrena and the killing of the Italian secret service man by American soldiers.

I say the Italian guy is dead because the Americans were trigger-happy, or in other words too quick to fire on anything the remotely looks suspicious to their arrogant and frightened eyes. You, on the other hand, wanna believe that the Italians were trying to ram through an American military checkpoint!

We therefore proceed on the basis that you have taken one tae kwon do kick to the head too many.

[ QUOTE ]
You can stop slandering the troops any time now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh. You mean stop slandering the people responsible for braveries like this one, huh ?
http://www.nogw.com/images/dead8yrold.jpg

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
American soldiers entered Baghdad without meeting the anticipated resistance ("Baghdad will be the Iraqi Stalingrad", etc) but, still, they massacred scores of civilians who happened to be in their way.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then for the last time: prove it.

[ QUOTE ]
As to the subject at hand, despite your attempt to hijack this into something else,

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh no you don't. You're not getting off that easy. YOU made a vicious attack on the integrity of our troops that you can't prove. I called your bullshit what it was. And I"m not letting you off the hook, no matter how much you squirm.

[ QUOTE ]
I say the Italian guy is dead because the Americans were trigger-happy, or in other words too quick to fire on anything the remotely looks suspicious to their arrogant and frightened eyes. You, on the other hand, wanna believe that the Italians were trying to ram through an American military checkpoint!

[/ QUOTE ]
I am very confused as to why the Italians were driving at 60 mph towards a military checkpoint and refused to respond to signals given by the Americans. I believe the troops, you believe the Communist.

[ QUOTE ]
We therefore proceed on the basis that you have taken one tae kwon do kick to the head too many.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've never had anyone kick me in the head yet. It's called blocking.

[ QUOTE ]
Oh. You mean stop slandering the people responsible for braveries like this one, huh ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. It's sad that the child is dead. It is sadder that you would rather see that nation enslaved by its former ruler, with the police raping, torturing, and murdering people for no reason.

And I think we can therefore proceed to determine that you've been visiting too many sites with pics like this:
http://www.nogw.com/images/nye1.jpg

[Cyrus]

Probably the same junk that Lehighguy is on. Start shopping in better neighborhoods.

[ QUOTE ]
Did you read the link you put here? Mentions NOTHING about shooting at civilians. Does mention shooting at houses. No civilians.

[/ QUOTE ] (patient voice) The American military freely admits that it meted out collective punishment against a whole village! And that leaves you without concern or remorse?

This is what Nazi Germany was doing in occupied Europe, whenever a German soldier was fired upon in an area. The Germans would hit the nearest village, and either bomb it to pieces or walk in and execute all adult males. (I guess the latter option can't be explained away just yet by the Pentagon hacks.)

[ QUOTE ]
What uniform are the insurgents wearing? If we kill an insurgent did we just kill a civillian?

[/ QUOTE ] (bored voice) There are specific rules of engagement when dealing with a civilian insurgency. There are, despite assertions to the contrary, such things as international law, or, to put it more specifically, the Geneva Convention Protocols. Check it out next time you wanna read something while feasting on Jack-in-a-box. Says nothing about allowing soldiers to fire into crowds or bomb whole neighborhoods.

But one should expect nothing more from the neo-con nutters of this board than excuse for any atrocity committed by American troops and a cavalier dismissal of all restraints. After all, it's kinda official! The man appointed by Bush to represent the United States in the UN is on record as stating that "there is no such thing as international law".

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
You've been visiting too many sites with pics like this: (pic of protesters with banner "Bush engineered 9/11")

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah, that would fit right in with your world view, i.e. that anyone who opposes the lunacy and criminality of the war in Iraq is nuts. Sorry, can't oblige. This is, shall we say, not your average college Republicans get-together.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. It's sad that the child is dead.

[/ QUOTE ] Here. Take a hankie. Can't stand to see a crocodile crying.

[ QUOTE ]
It is sadder that you would rather see that nation enslaved by its former ruler, with the police raping, torturing, and murdering people for no reason.

[/ QUOTE ] You mean Saddam Hussein?? But that's your guy! It's your side that helped him get to power (his Ba'athists were keen on killing Iraqi leftists), helped him get arms (need I post again the pic of Rummie kissing Saddam ass?), prodded him to start the war against Iran (yep!), ignored pleas to denounce Iraqi treatment of dissidents (rape, murder!), etcetera.

When the much maligned "left" (actually, anyone with a brain) was protesting that folly of Amercian foreign policy, the conservative whackos were mumbling stuff such as "my enemy's enemy" or "lesser of two evils". Pathetic little criminals, the lot.

[ QUOTE ]
I've never had anyone kick me in the head yet.

[/ QUOTE ] Not on the basis of your posts.

[Cyrus]

Let me FYP :[ QUOTE ]
The American military satellite that cannot be checked by independent authorities backs up my interpretation as well as the official military assertion that they were reckless and wanted to ram through the American military checkpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, absolutely.

Can't argue with prime ganja.

[ QUOTE ]
What backs up yours?

[/ QUOTE ] Logic.

But forget about it.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that would fit right in with your world view, i.e. that anyone who opposes the lunacy and criminality of the war in Iraq is nuts. Sorry, can't oblige. This is, shall we say, not your average college Republicans get-together.

[/ QUOTE ]
Anyone who believes Bush engineered 9-11 is nuts. And that was just a picture from the site. It also claimed that Bush Sr and the Mossad piloted remote control planes with explosives into the WTC buildings. And you are also nuts because you would try to pass off something from there.

[ QUOTE ]
Here. Take a hankie. Can't stand to see a crocodile crying.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, I'm sure you'll need it more, seeing as how sad you are about the hundreds of thousands that died under Saddam Hussein. Oh wait, you aren't. You'd rather slander our troops and use graphic images of dead children to push your lunatic ideas. You're sick man.

[ QUOTE ]
You mean Saddam Hussein?? But that's your guy! It's your side that helped him get to power (his Ba'athists were keen on killing Iraqi leftists), helped him get arms (need I post again the pic of Rummie kissing Saddam ass?), prodded him to start the war against Iran (yep!), ignored pleas to denounce Iraqi treatment of dissidents (rape, murder!), etcetera.

When the much maligned "left" (actually, anyone with a brain) was protesting that folly of Amercian foreign policy, the conservative whackos were mumbling stuff such as "my enemy's enemy" or "lesser of two evils". Pathetic little criminals, the lot.

[/ QUOTE ]
So I guess we should have just left him there to murder and rape more people and eventually turn over the country to his sons who were suppposed to be worse.

[ QUOTE ]
Not on the basis of your posts.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure reality and truth is foreign to your eyes and would look strange when presented to you.

[vulturesrow]

Cyrus,

I always thought you were a rational defender of liberal views. Unfortunately, this thread has gone a long way toward reducing the validity of that opinion. At my count there are at least two clear logical fallacies in the various arguments that you have presented. Secondly, the pictures you posted, with no context other than "dead kid in Iraq", are a completely disingenous appeal to emotionalism rather than rational thought. For all I know the kids were hurt in terrorist bombings, which we both know for a fact has happened. Step away from the table and stop steaming.

[lehighguy]

What logic?

You've thrown out my evidence on the basis of the fact that its my evidence.

What evidence do you present that American soildiers fired on Sgrena for no reason?

[mojorisin24]

[ QUOTE ]
I find the whole episode a tragic reminder of how trigger happy the American soldiers have been in Iraq since the first day of military operations.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are just plain ignorant. Sorry, but there is no place for your fanciful delusions about a counterinsurgency campaign. American checkpoints are giant bullseyes for insurgents, and the rules governing them are ruthless. Anyone speeding towards one is killed, just like during any US combat operation, anyone in the line of fire is killed. Go back through history and see the number of civilians killed in any conflict. There are countless numbers....yes, such deaths are a tragedy, but they are unavoidable in war. U.S. force protection is the number one priority in Iraq, as most of these guys only want to protect theirs and their buddies' asses and get the hell out of there. Expecting them to hesitate whenever their lives are threatened is ridiculous, and only proves your unrealistic and nonsensical idea of correct U.S. fighting posture.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
You've thrown out my evidence on the basis of the fact that it's my evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't tempt me...


[ QUOTE ]
What evidence do you present that American soildiers fired on Sgrena for no reason?

[/ QUOTE ] I did not say "no reason". This is what automatons like you and BCPVP are fixated on. I have submitted that the soldiers at the check points proved to be trigger happy.

"Proved to be" means that subsequent events showed them indeed to be trigger-happy.

The reasons for being trigger-happy? I already explained that they might have had a "legitimate" reason (note quotation marks) such as having being earlier a target of suicide bombers or having been warned of such attacks. I wrote that such a background was possible a week ago -- and now a CNN Report confirms (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/05/02/italy.report/index.html) it!

[ QUOTE ]
. The checkpoint was on a curve in the road, which may have been a contributing factor, the report said.

[/ QUOTE ]

MY CONCLUSION : The American soldiers in Iraq are suffering from the poor planning of the political leadership. (Others, beside Americans, are also paying a price for that. Such as the Italian secret service man or Iraqi civilians.) The numbnuts on top of the Pentagon, Don Rumsfeld above all, sent fewer troops than the brass asked for, had them sent over there with the minimum of necessary training, had them do actual police work (for which they were patently unaccustomed to and untrained for), did not even provide them with enough Arab-speaking personnel, etcetera etcetera, one snafu on top of another. Add to that the successful operations of the insurgents (successful in that they kill Americans) which adds to the frustration felt by the troops. Add to that the feeling of helplessness felt by many (as expressed volubly by the soldier who dared condront Rummie in that press conference). And so on.

A mixture of incompetence, fatigue and stress from the part of American troops killed that Italian guy.

Which is, by the way, precisely what the Italian investigation now claims! Check it out (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2298966&page=77&view= expanded&sb=6&o=&fpart=).

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
The reasons for being trigger-happy? I already explained that they might have had a "legitimate" reason (note quotation marks) such as having being earlier a target of suicide bombers or having been warned of such attacks.

[/ QUOTE ]
There's a difference between being trigger happy and being cautious.

I disagree with your conclusion(suprise suprise) and I'd suggest you actually read the entire transcript of the exchange between Rumsfeld and the soldier. It might be different than what you're spoonfed from www.nogw.com (http://www.nogw.com)

And it's interesting to note how freely you admit your confirmation bias. The U.S. must be wrong because I don't like GWB, but the Italians must be right because they agree with me. Classic.

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
The U.S. report put much of the blame on Italy for the friendly fire incident, saying Italian agents in Baghdad failed to communicate to U.S. officials their plans to take freed hostage Giuliana Sgrena to the Baghdad airport.

Rome denied that, saying U.S. authorities were "indisputably" aware of the presence of Calipari and a second Italian agent in Baghdad even if "it is likely that they were not aware of the details of their mission."

[/ QUOTE ]
linky (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050502/pl_nm/iraq_italy_usa_dc_51)

surely the Italians/Italian govenment bears no fault

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who believes Bush engineered 9-11 is nuts. And that was just a picture from the site.

[/ QUOTE ] This picture might have been on a CNN or FoxNews report. Would that mean anything?

Are you seriously trying to pin on me ideas such as "Bush engineered 9/11" ? You are seriously grasping.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure you'll need it ... seeing as how sad you are about the hundreds of thousands that died under Saddam Hussein.

[/ QUOTE ] I was actually protesting Saddam Hussein's regime and the US aid and support he was getting. What were you doing, kicker? I was protesting that immoral folly while prime assholes were pooh-poohing his atrocities on the basis that "he might be a son of a bitch but he's our son of a bitch". Which means in so many words that Saddam's Baathist regime was (a) preferable to the socialist alternative, and (b) the Iranian mullahs were the focus.

So, spare me your false tears about the Iraqi women and children dead. When Saddam was butchering them, your lot was at best looking the other way; at worst egging him on.

[ QUOTE ]
You'd rather slander our troops and use graphic images of dead children to push your lunatic ideas.

[/ QUOTE ] Lunacy is an appropriate term for a policy that kills and maims innocent children by the thousands (after starving them of food and medicine for a decade -- but that was on "liberal" Clinton's watch, right?) and then does not want us to talk about it because the troops "will be slandered"... Would you happen to know how to go fly a kite?


[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure reality and truth is foreign to your eyes and would look strange when presented to you.

[/ QUOTE ] Well since college life has you so well prepared for "truth" and "reality", feast yer eyes on this:

[ QUOTE ]
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A classified version of a U.S. report on the shooting death of an Italian intelligence agent by American troops in Baghdad says that the Iraqi capital was then under a wave of insurgent attacks reaching into the thousands.
<font color="white"> .
</font> The U.S. report paints a grim picture of insurgency in the Iraqi capitol in the months leading up to the March shootings, including details not made public elsewhere.
<font color="white"> . </font>
U.S. investigators said it was difficult to reconstruct the shootings because the scene was not preserved.

[/ QUOTE ]

So now, it appears not only that there was a snafu, but that the insurgency is actually more serious than we were been led to believe until now! Beautiful. I love it when your side tries to cover up things, only to reveal others. linky (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/05/02/italy.report/index.html)

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
(sarcastically) Surely the Italians/Italian govenment bears no fault.

[/ QUOTE ] On the contrary, the Italian side surely has much to answer for. Such as the exchange between the Italian general and the American captain at his side, to whom the Italian said that the car travel be best kept secret. The American captain now claims that he took this to be a direct order. Which poses a number of questions.

Since when an American captain in Iraq is supposed to be taking orders from an Italian general? The American captain was "an aide" to the Italian general, but did that involve some line of command? I'd take the assignment to mean providing logistic assistance and amenities. I would also assume that the Italian general had flown in especially to oversee the hostage situation but was not given operational authority. (Would he be able to order American troops, for example, to open fire somewhere? I don't think so.)

But the main blame lies with the incompetency of the American brass which led to the ill-trained soldiers' fatigue, stress and fear.

linky (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&amp;u=/nm/20050502/pl_nm/iraq_italy_usa_dc_51)

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
Since when an American captain in Iraq is supposed to be taking orders from an Italian general?

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, Italy and the U.S. were both part of the coalition, were they not? (assuming this is even true)

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you seriously trying to pin on me ideas such as "Bush engineered 9/11" ? You are seriously grasping.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, I'm questioning the judgement of someone who's trying desperately to discredit U.S. troops as trigger-happy monsters.

[ QUOTE ]
So, spare me your false tears about the Iraqi women and children dead. When Saddam was butchering them, your lot was at best looking the other way; at worst egging him on.

[/ QUOTE ]
And yet you denigrate the effort to remove him. Make up your mind please.

[ QUOTE ]
Lunacy is an appropriate term for a policy that kills and maims innocent children by the thousands (after starving them of food and medicine for a decade -- but that was on "liberal" Clinton's watch, right?) and then does not want us to talk about it because the troops "will be slandered"...

[/ QUOTE ]
No, lunacy is the leader of a nation spending billions on palaces and bribing UN Security Council nations. It is not the world's job to provide food/medicine to the Iraqis. That is Saddam's responsibility as the leader of his country.

************************************************** *****
From your link:
[ QUOTE ]
t also concludes that U.S. forces were never told that agent Nicola Calipari, 50, was trying to spirit a just-freed Italian hostage, journalist Giuliana Sgrena, out of Iraq.

The report finds that the U.S. troops who shot and killed Calipari and wounded Sgrena at a checkpoint were operating within their rules and will not face disciplinary action...

The airport road is considered one of the most dangerous routes in Iraq and is a frequent site of insurgent attacks.

The report said troops along the airport road encountered varying methods of attack, including explosives set on timers, placed along guard rails or along median strips, and even in animal carcasses.

The U.S. report said no American military personnel were aware the Italians would be traveling on the airport road the night of March 4. But the report described an exchange between a U.S. Army captain and an Italian general to whom he had been assigned as an aide.

It said the Italian general suspected Sgrena was on her way to the airport that night but told his American aide, "It is best if no one knows." The captain took that to be a direct order, the report said.

U.S. investigators said it was difficult to reconstruct the shootings because the scene was not preserved but they said they believe the Italians were traveling about 50 mph when American troops flashed lights and signaled them to stop before 11 shots were fired. The checkpoint was on a curve in the road, which may have been a contributing factor, the report said.

A bullet hit Calipari in the head as he attempted to shield Sgrena. The reporter and another bodyguard, who was driving, were wounded.

Soldiers tried to render medical assistance to Calipari at the scene, but he died within a few minutes, the classified report said. The young soldier who fired the shots apparently became so upset he was relieved of his post so he could "collect himself," the report said.

One indicator of how high tensions may have been running is that soldiers manning the checkpoint had been told to be on the watch for suicide car bombers, one in a black car and another in a white one, the report said.

The soldiers had turned around 15 to 30 cars at the checkpoint that evening, so when the Calipari vehicle approached they believed it was a threat, the report said.

The investigating officer "concluded that the vehicle approaching the checkpoint failed to reduce speed until fired upon," said a statement accompanying the report. "The soldiers manning the checkpoint acted in accordance with the rules of engagement."

[/ QUOTE ]
Not quite the damning indictment of the troops as you'd like, I'm sure.



And btw, to date I've yet to get kicked above the shoulders in any tournament. You, OTOH, seem to be suffering from anti-troop hysteria. Perhaps you should just go with the men in white...

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
There's a difference between being trigger happy and being cautious.

[/ QUOTE ] Indeed -- but you don't seem to know it.

Cautious is trying to stay safe. Trigger happy is trying to stay safe no matter what the cost - to anyone within the horizon - and seeing threats where none exists.

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with your conclusion and I'd suggest you actually read the entire transcript of the exchange between Rumsfeld and the soldier.

[/ QUOTE ] I will concede that the American soldier was actually thanking the Secretary of Defense for the excellent work he had personally done to ensure that the soldiers in Iraq would be sufficient in numbers and adequately equipped to do their job. Okay?

I must have been reading something else not to have caught it right the first time. (Me and a hundred news agencies. /images/graemlins/cool.gif)

[ QUOTE ]
The U.S. must be wrong because I don't like GWB, .

[/ QUOTE ] You are confused.

The U.S. is wrong to go into Iraq and actually went about it wrong too! (If you gonna do it, do it right, you numbnuts.)

You like GWB but you're not "wrong" as such. You are just fond of fantasies ("America is number one", etc).

Clear ?


[ QUOTE ]
...but the Italians must be right because they agree with me.

[/ QUOTE ] You are very confused. To the point where you now forget what you were posting only hours ago!

You claimed, in so many words, that the Italians were speeding and did not stop -- so they were either crazy or trying to ram through the American checkpoint... I, on the other hand, dismissed the possibility of intentional killing AND claimed that there was recklessness on the part of the Americans. I even gave possible reasons for that posture, e.g. stress caused by other suicide attacks happening at the time. The Italian report just confirmed my version! And they say nothing about any car "speeding" suicidally towards the checkpoint.

Where do you see the Italians agreeing with you? You are tremendously confused.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm questioning the judgement of someone who's trying desperately to discredit U.S. troops as trigger-happy monsters

[/ QUOTE ] You tried to link my reasoning with a picture (which you posted up) showing a placard accusing Bush of engineering 9/11. If this is your way of showing that the other side's judgement is flawed, you are indeed desperate.

[ QUOTE ]
And yet you denigrate the effort to remove [Saddam Hussein]. Make up your mind please.

[/ QUOTE ] I don't expect you to understand. You need to learn more about foreign policy, international treaties, diplomacy and (possibly, if it's not a stretch) morals. Then, maybe, you will understand what I'm trying to explain to you.

[ QUOTE ]
From your link: ...
Not quite the damning indictment of the troops as you'd like, I'm sure.

[/ QUOTE ] What I'd like is for the Italian spook to have remained alive. To you, the hardened armchair general, he was but a statistic in the road of American righteousness towards glory and victory. It's called being young and foolish, you'll get over it.

As to the passages you outlined, they all show that the situation was dangerous and that road itself was dangerous as well. Were the troops properly equipped, trained and ordered to assume the task of manning the roadblock? Subsequent events showed that they clearly were not.

Oh. And I am eagerly anticipating your link to where it says that the Italian report agrees with you. You know, where it says about the Italians speeding crazily, like you claim, and trying to ram through the roadblock.

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[ QUOTE ]
To date I've yet to get kicked above the shoulders in any tournament.

[/ QUOTE ] So your brain is located in the vicinity of your testicles. Don't feel bad about it.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
I will concede that the American soldier was actually thanking the Secretary of Defense for the excellent work he had personally done to ensure that the soldiers in Iraq would be sufficient in numbers and adequately equipped to do their job. Okay?

I must have been reading something else not to have caught it right the first time. (Me and a hundred news agencies. )

[/ QUOTE ]
here's the full transcript as I'm sure you haven't read it.
http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2004/tr20041208-secdef1761.html

[ QUOTE ]
You are very confused. To the point where you now forget what you were posting only hours ago!

You claimed, in so many words, that the Italians were speeding and did not stop -- so they were either crazy or trying to ram through the American checkpoint... I, on the other hand, dismissed the possibility of intentional killing AND claimed that there was recklessness on the part of the Americans. I even gave possible reasons for that posture, e.g. stress caused by other suicide attacks happening at the time. The Italian report just confirmed my version! And they say nothing about any car "speeding" suicidally towards the checkpoint.

Where do you see the Italians agreeing with you? You are tremendously confused.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess it was too subtle for you. I was mocking you. Imitating the way you are behaving and how you are displaying your confirmation bias in which you dismiss the U.S. account, but are only to happy to accept the Italian version because it agrees with your preconceived notions.

And shooting at a speeding car that is at least giving the signals that they may be a suicide bomber is cautious, not trigger happy. You've said yourself that one possible explanation is that the troops knew of other such attacks. That means they are reasonable in assuming a car driving at 50-60 mph towards a U.S. checkpoint may be a terrorist attack. That means that they would not be trigger happy in responding by shooting the car AFTER they'd tried to signal the car. If they just shot at the car without any attempts to signal the car, I might agree that the soldiers behaved recklessly, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[Cyrus]

I don't have the answer to that. I am merely posing what I think is a legitimate question.

There is a crucial point in the Calipari killing : Did the American side know or did it not know of the impending spring to freedom of the car carrying Sgrena ? The American side claims it never heard of it. The Italians claim they informed the proper channels. (In the chaos that is Iraq, good luck trying to define those "proper channels".)

Now, the American side claims that the Italian general (upon learning that the hostage was freed and would be making a run towards safety in a car) said to his American aide, a captain, that the car's ride "best be kept secret". The American captain says he took that to mean "a direct order" not to inform anyone else, not even his superior American officers!

You can understand my doubts about the veracity of such excuses. I mean, what if the Italian general "ordered" something that might have endangered American soldiers' lives? I just don't buy it.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess it was too subtle for you. I was mocking you. Imitating the way you are behaving and how you are displaying your confirmation bias in which you dismiss the U.S. account, but are only to happy to accept the Italian version because it agrees with your preconceived notions.

[/ QUOTE ]

(shrug) You are still in delusional mode. Nothing I can do about it.

I have put up my version of events. The Italians subsequently release a report that jives with my version. What exactly does that show except that there is at least one side (in possession of more evidence than me, as well) which corroborates my version?

Your claims, on the other hand, suffer quite a it logically, as well as technically. Clock yourself seeing a car approaching, signalling it to stop and then, upon concluding that it does not brake, firing upon it at least eleven rounds or ammo. I sumbit that there was fire with at best concurrent warnings! I submit that this was one poor roadblock in any case.

If you had been paying attention you would also have noticed a little gem that just came out and goes a long way towards explaining the snafu situation that the American troops were (once again) put it: the roadblock, both sides agree, was after a curve.

Can your bandana'd head grasp that?? After a curve.

Even a foolish college Republican would not put a roadblock at a spot which inherentlyprovides the men with little reaction time.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
It is not the world's job to provide food/medicine to the Iraqis. That is Saddam's responsibility as the leader of his country.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you have heard about a thing called "sanctions" ?

It was a little something that prevented food and medicine arriving feeely to Iraq. (It amplifed corruption and abuse, by the way.) Human rights agencies have repeatedly denounced the inhumanity of that particular American action and demanded that the sanctions on medicine and other necessities be eased or lifted outright. They cited thousands of cases of Iraqi children dying as a result of those actions. (Need the hankie now?)

But why worry? You are a Republican, this was done during Bill Clinton's watch, should be easy to dismiss the whole thing as a liberal mistake, no doubt.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
I have put up my version of events. The Italians subsequently release a report that jives with my version. What exactly does that show except that there is at least one side (in possession of more evidence than me, as well) which corroborates my version?

[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously there are multiple sides. My beef with you is that you are going out of your way to simultaneously dismiss the U.S. version and accept the Italian version because it "jives" with your preconcieved notions. That's almost the textbook definition of the confirmation bias.

[ QUOTE ]
Your claims, on the other hand, suffer quite a it logically, as well as technically. Clock yourself seeing a car approaching, signalling it to stop and then, upon concluding that it does not brake, firing upon it at least eleven rounds or ammo. I sumbit that there was fire with at best concurrent warnings! I submit that this was one poor roadblock in any case.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think we both need to admit that we're both making assumptions without seeing exactly what the scene looked like. Do we know the distance at which the soldiers noticed the car? Do we know for how long the soldiers signaled? Do we know how far the car was when the soldiers opened fire? Do we know the SOP for when to fire on a car that is not slowing down for a checkpoint? I don't. That information is kinda critical in determining whether the soldiers acted recklessly. The U.S. investigation (which has better access to the facts than any of us) has concluded that the soldiers were not reckless. The Italians partly disagree, but also admit that they didn't inform the U.S. of the plan to rescue Sgrena; only that this agent happened to be in Baghdad.

[ QUOTE ]
If you had been paying attention you would also have noticed a little gem that just came out and goes a long way towards explaining the snafu situation that the American troops were (once again) put it: the roadblock, both sides agree, was after a curve.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd need to see the exact stretch of road, but unless this road is like a bobsled course, that shouldn't prevent cars traveling towards the checkpoint from seeing it.

[ QUOTE ]
Even a foolish college Republican would not put a roadblock at a spot which inherentlyprovides the men with little reaction time.

[/ QUOTE ]
Apparently enough time to:
1) notice a car was traveling towards them at 60 mph
2) attempt to signal the car (Accounts I've read say they used light, hand, and warning shots)
3) order the weapons to be unsafed and fired
That takes some time.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
But why worry? You are a Republican, this was done during Bill Clinton's watch, should be easy to dismiss the whole thing as a liberal mistake, no doubt.

[/ QUOTE ]
And yet you're still bi tching even though we not only removed the sanctions, but removed the leader who was responsible for them. Will anything make you happy?

[smudgex68]

How cme this satellite data is not available to the Italian authorities.

Admit it tw@t, a terrible tragedy committed by young kids who don't know the rules of engagement and have killed approximately 500 innocent Iraqui civilians under similar circumstances. Get your troops trained, and quickly.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
You're still bi tching even though we not only removed the sanctions, but removed the leader who was responsible for them. Will anything make you happy?

[/ QUOTE ] Yes. Signing on an agreement and then keeping it. Example of agreement: international law.

Your kind, on the other hand, buoyed by ephemeral omnipotency, seems to prefer the law of the jungle, instead. A place where might makes right -- we like this guy now for whatever reason, we don't like this guy now for whatever reason. Such a place is full of tombs of people and nations who thought they were immortal.

You will live long enough to find out.

[ QUOTE ]
The U.S. investigation (which has better access to the facts than any of us) has concluded that the soldiers were not reckless.

[/ QUOTE ] The U.S. investigation is inherently biased. One might say "with good cause". If the U.S. investigation blames the American soldiers, the morale and command chain will suffer. Especially at roadblock duty.

I have already made my case about the soldiers being "reckless", aka trigger-happy. And I gave the reasons for that. We now have at least one side, the Italians, confirming about the American soldiers' "stress, fatigue and inadequacy". The other side, the Americans, only offer the equivalent of reckless Italian driving! My case is made.

Here's the tough part: Did the American know beforehand and, if yes, how much?

[ QUOTE ]
The Italians ... admit that they didn't inform the U.S. of the plan to rescue Sgrena; only that this agent happened to be in Baghdad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this tremendously hard to accept. Italians staging a rescue operation in ..Iraq without the American military being involved every step of the way?? I don't think so! Italians attempting to spring an ex-hostage out of Iraq and knowing that they need to pass through American roadblocks but not informing any American about that?? Hard to believe - although the Italian stupidity is already evident by them being in Iraq already!

The clincher: the American side claims that the Italian general who was in Iraq, to supervise the operation no doubt, upon learning that the hostage was freed and would be making a run towards safety in a car, said to his American aide, a captain, that the car's ride "best be kept secret". The American captain now says he took that to mean "a direct order" not to inform anyone else, not even his superior American officers!

...I most certainly don't think so.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
Admit it, twat, a terrible tragedy committed by young kids who don't know the rules of engagement and have killed approximately 500 innocent Iraqi civilians under similar circumstances. Get your troops trained, and quickly.

[/ QUOTE ] Italian female acquaintance, voting for Forza in Verona, is furious with the American whitewashing. That's one lost vote for Silvio, she stays at home this time.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. Signing on an agreement and then keeping it. Example of agreement: international law.

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course! An "agreement"! Why didn't we think of that!...
Saddam has shown that his willingness to uphold international law has been splotchy at best, yes?

[ QUOTE ]
The U.S. investigation is inherently biased.

[/ QUOTE ]
As is the Italian investigation.

[ QUOTE ]
We now have at least one side, the Italians, confirming about the American soldiers' "stress, fatigue and inadequacy".

[/ QUOTE ]
Have you ever wondered how the Italians know the physical condition of specific U.S. soldiers at this one roadblock?

As far as the rescue operation, unless you have other evidence, you're just guessing. I thought I remembered back when it happened that there was talk that the U.S. didn't want the Italians to cave in to the kidnappers, but the Italians went ahead anyway. That could be one reason why they didn't tell the U.S. about the specific plan.

[ QUOTE ]
the American side claims that the Italian general who was in Iraq, to supervise the operation no doubt, upon learning that the hostage was freed and would be making a run towards safety in a car, said to his American aide, a captain, that the car's ride "best be kept secret". The American captain now says he took that to mean "a direct order" not to inform anyone else, not even his superior American officers!

[/ QUOTE ]
He was the general's aide. If he was Private Joe Blow, the story might be different, but as an aide, I'm sure he takes orders (to some degree) from him. There are dozens of reasons to keep this a secret temporarily.

[smudgex68]

After Cermis, where the US pilot murdered 40 ski tourists playing a game going under a cable car cable, and not surprisingly cocking it up (no Iceman), squashing all the occupants, then having the Americans destroy the video evidence, fly the murderers out of the country within hours, it's hardly surprising the Italians are sceptical of another "independent" Us inquiry. As a foreigner in Italy, what I do find surprising is the very heartfelt debt Italians feel towards America for their liberation in 1943, but this is rapidly being replaced with a feeling that America, unlike Europe, has not learnt significantly from previous wars and are acting under poorly educated and informed politcians who are creating significant damage, not only in physical terms but also long lasting political terms.

Everyone here feels that debts owed to the US have been paid and that any further involvement of Italy with the US will be purely through NATO or the UN. They haven't appreciated the dishonesty displayed in this recent cock up.

[vulturesrow]

I am not sure why you are coming unhinged over this particular incident but you are really stretching. BVCP showed with bold lettering the pertinent passages in the Italian report. You make various claims about the fitness, training, and mindset of American troops, things which you are in no position to be able to evaluate. You also make various claims about the American aide cited and yet it is clear to me that you have no clear idea of what sort of relationship this term implies (and yes it does imply a certain sort of relationship.) You are willfullly misintepreting things that BCVP has written, e.g., the picture he posted and his reasons for doing so. Perhaps a good night's sleep will clear your mind and allow you to think rationally again.

[smudgex68]

Furthermore, whilst I'm in the mood. How confident are you of the sophistication of the US military, with their satellites etc, who then post the report on the internet in such a way that by simply copying and pasting you remove all the blacked out sections revealing all the embarrassing details and contradictions, plus the names of the kids who killed the agent. Now, becuse of another US cock-up, those kids, Lozano and the Capt, will never be able to visit the wonderful Italian cities of Rome, Florence, Milan etc, without being arrested for manslaughter at the boder. That's really not fair on them - it's not their fault they shot up some car (containing a woman) in the dark - they were terrified.

[smudgex68]

I don't believe any of this. Care to back this up?


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Italians would have a far better chance of surviving if that had been a British roadblock.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Only if those British troops didn't care for their safety.


You'll find that the British troops are in fact more highly trained that the US troops, as is also the case for our professional troops. The annual special services competition has been won by either the SAS or SBS for the past 15 years, with Navy Seals, and other country special forces trailing well behind.

[smudgex68]

[ QUOTE ]
I am very confused as to why the Italians were driving at 60 mph towards a military checkpoint and refused to respond to signals given by the Americans.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortnately, this information has been provided only by one source, and the alleged satellite supporting data has not been provided to the Italians despite their request. I wonder why?

The testimonies of the soldiers at the checkpoint is also contradictory, despite having been coached by a senior military official.

The checkpoint was not a checkpoint (it was a temporary road block) and should not have been there had US communications been better.

This all reflects the US policy of never admitting guilt for their mistakes - take Vietnam Agent Orange compensation claims, the My Lai massacre, and the Ro-Denigra massacre in Korea in 1956 as further evidence of this policy, which to a certain extent is understandable. However, this should be dependent on having well trained, experienced soldiers on the ground, not National Guard kids trying to save some money.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
You'll find that the British troops are in fact more highly trained that the US troops, as is also the case for our professional troops. The annual special services competition has been won by either the SAS or SBS for the past 15 years, with Navy Seals, and other country special forces trailing well behind.

[/ QUOTE ]
This does not show how the British would have reacted differently to a speeding car towards their roadblock.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
You'll find that the British troops are in fact more highly trained that the US troops, as is also the case for our professional troops.

[/ QUOTE ]

Get real. Seriously, do you really believe that? American military training is widely regarded as the model worldwide.

[ QUOTE ]
The annual special services competition has been won by either the SAS or SBS for the past 15 years, with Navy Seals, and other country special forces trailing well behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Link?


BTW, even if this true, the point doesnt stand up. The training of conventional forces and Special Forces is quite different and their missions are quite different. Using the results of some international competition has no bearing on the training of conventional forces manning a checkpoint.

[trippin bily]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is not the world's job to provide food/medicine to the Iraqis. That is Saddam's responsibility as the leader of his country.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you have heard about a thing called "sanctions" ?

It was a little something that prevented food and medicine arriving feeely to Iraq. (It amplifed corruption and abuse, by the way.) Human rights agencies have repeatedly denounced the inhumanity of that particular American action and demanded that the sanctions on medicine and other necessities be eased or lifted outright. They cited thousands of cases of Iraqi children dying as a result of those actions. (Need the hankie now?)

But why worry? You are a Republican, this was done during Bill Clinton's watch, should be easy to dismiss the whole thing as a liberal mistake, no doubt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cyrus As you know the oilf for food program was put into place by the UN the give food and nedicine to iraqi woman and children.
Instead the UN and saddam pocketed the money.
Don't blmae sanctions for doing what your precious UN did.

[trippin bily]

Stop when you see a US checkpoint and you live.
Don't and you die.

[MMMMMM]

Cyrus, you still have not, despite repeated requests, offered one shred of evidence that the following assertion you made actually occurred:

Cyrus: "When the American tanks first rolled into Baghdad, Iraqi civilians who found themselves in their general path, unarmed men on the sidewalk, women raising their hands in the universal symbol of surrendering, children peeping out of a door, even dogs, were cut down where they stood by "precautionary fire". A wave of metal thunder, indeed."

Still waiting for some evidence of the above...

[sirio11]

Yes, and I still waiting for the famous satellite evidence that started this thread.

[Cyrus]

I had forgotten about tthat cock-up!

Back to Sgrena:
[ QUOTE ]
Those [American] kids, Lozano and the Capt, will never be able to visit the wonderful Italian cities of Rome, Florence, Milan etc, without being arrested for manslaughter at the boder.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hold on a minute.

The United States has meticulously and thoroughly engaged in a diplomatic strategy whereby, through strictly bilateral negotiations, eg US-Italy, US-Congo, etc, it obtained practically total immunity for its military personnel. In so many words, I do not think that those (murderous) kids at the Sgrena checkpoint will be facing trial by an Italian court -- not even if they travel to Milan with the wisdom of Tripin Billy emblazoned on their t-shirts: "See an American checkpoint, Stop!
Don't and you Die!"

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not sure why you are coming unhinged over this particular incident.

[/ QUOTE ]

If strong language puts you off, I'm sorry but my deafault mode is to strive for accuracy.

I will not accept that there was a conspiracy to murder the Italian journalist, unless Bush himself admits to it; logic and the evidence simply do not point that way. At the same time, the proper term for the soldiers manning that (probably badly set up) checkpoint and being "under stress and fatigue", nervous (if not scared) from all the suicide attacks going on those days all around Baghdad, and may I add poorly trained, was trigger happy.

This ruffles some feathers, I know, but that's the proper (and relatively mild) term for it.

[ QUOTE ]
You make various claims about the fitness, training, and mindset of American troops, things which you are in no position to be able to evaluate.

[/ QUOTE ]
The history, so far, of the Iraq campaign bears out everything I have claimed about fitness, training and mindset of American troops. Plus, all the news and evidence leaking daily out of Iraq corroborate, in the most conclusive terms, those descriptions.

If you want me to stop making them until I get to Baghdad myself, I will not oblige.

[ QUOTE ]
BVCP showed with bold lettering the pertinent passages in the Italian report.

[/ QUOTE ]
How many times need we go over this?

Those "pertinent passages" show what I have already stated (conceded, if you wanna hear that word, is not right since I never claimed it!) from the beginning, i.e. that most probably there was no conspiracy, as such, to kill anyone in the Italian car - not Calipari and not Sgrena. The Italian Report states as much, purely and simply.

...When the Italian Report came out yesterday and confirmed my informed speculations, I was accused by BCPVP that I was only using what reports fit my "preconceived notions"! Is this rich or what?

[ QUOTE ]
You also make various claims about the American aide cited and yet it is clear to me that you have no clear idea of what sort of relationship this term implies (and yes it does imply a certain sort of relationship.)

[/ QUOTE ] Are you implying there was sex involved? /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Seriously, you are in the military. Can you imagine a situation whereby an American officer would yield command on an operational matter in Iraq to an Italian superior officer?? I truly cannot. If you can enlighten me (us) on this eventuality, please do.

Let me say this: The American captain and aide to the Italian general did not "obey a direct order", as he now puts it. I'm sure he decided on his own, possibly as a matter of courtesy too, not to forward the matter of the Italian car's spring up the hierarchy to his superior officers. But, again, if you know better (and you're sure that the Italian general could actually order an American captain who acts as his aide), go ahead and divulge.

This claim happens now to be the weakest link in the American version of events -- which is contradictory enough already, as it is.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
If strong language puts you off, I'm sorry but my deafault mode is to strive for accuracy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been in the military since I finished high school, this discussion doesnt even register on my strong language detector. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
The history, so far, of the Iraq campaign bears out everything I have claimed about fitness, training and mindset of American troops. Plus, all the news and evidence leaking daily out of Iraq corroborate, in the most conclusive terms, those descriptions

[/ QUOTE ]

Point me to something specific that you think shows that the American soldiers are a) poorly trained or b)not fit for the duties required. I have already seen what you think illustrates the American "trigger happy" mindset and Ive found it wanting.

[ QUOTE ]
How many times need we go over this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Until you get it right. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

The Italian report somewhat contradicts itself in that on one hand claims to be able to tell where the blame should like while on the other hand saying it was impossible to investigate! Huh?!

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, you are in the military. Can you imagine a situation whereby an American officer would yield command on an operational matter in Iraq to an Italian superior officer?? I truly cannot. If you can enlighten me (us) on this eventuality, please do.

Let me say this: The American captain and aide to the Italian general did not "obey a direct order", as he now puts it. I'm sure he decided on his own, possibly as a matter of courtesy too, not to forward the matter of the Italian car's spring up the hierarchy to his superior officers. But, again, if you know better (and you're sure that the Italian general could actually order an American captain who acts as his aide), go ahead and divulge.


[/ QUOTE ]

Basically, the aide terminology implies that this officer works for the Italian general and thus, unless directly contradicting other order or US regulations, he would be expected to obey the General's orders. Here is what I think happened here. The General mentioned it to his aide and said it would be best if others didnt know. My assumption is that the Captain assumed (reasonably) that the matter wasnt for general consumption and that the American command element already knew about.

[smudgex68]

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently enough time to:
1) notice a car was traveling towards them at 60 mph
2) attempt to signal the car (Accounts I've read say they used light, hand, and warning shots)
3) order the weapons to be unsafed and fired
That takes some time.

[/ QUOTE ]

The car was travelling 40-50kph.
The barriers in the US report located 110m from the temporary road block did not exist
It was raining and overcast (where are those satellite images?) and the driver was slowing at a turn, whilst also using his mobile telephone (very Italian)
The soldiers manning the road block had received 12 days training
Two of their colleagues had been killed two days before
A light was shone to warn the car, as the car braked it was fired upon.

It's clear that this accident was caused by untrained, stressed, frightened kids. No-one in Italy is asking for them to be arrested, no-one doubts it was an accident. Most believe paying ransoms for hostages is wrong. I believe the Italians just would have preferred a truthful and honest investigation, rather than the US military trying to blame someone else for their error.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe the Italians just would have preferred a truthful and honest investigation, rather than the US military trying to blame someone else for their error.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why is this so hard to understand?

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
The Italian report somewhat contradicts itself in that on one hand claims to be able to tell where the blame should like while on the other hand saying it was impossible to investigate!

[/ QUOTE ] You are summarizing inaccurately. The Italians state that not all the evidence were made available to them by the American side (notably, the sat data) and, thus, a full and complete investigation, is not possible. Which is obvious.

They go on to state their findings on the basis of what was made available to them and what they discovered independently and also through logical conjecture. Again, quite normal.

[ QUOTE ]
My assumption is that the [American] Captain assumed (reasonably) that the matter wasn't for general consumption and that the American command element already knew about [it].

[/ QUOTE ] Hold it right there! I do not for a minute believe that even you, a neo-con whose mind is destroyed through FoxNews overkill /images/graemlins/grin.gif, would ever go down that road! You are given a sensitive piece of information by an Italian general who's there to see off a hostage and you are not making sure your American superior officers know (discreetly) what's going down?!

Are you kidding me? I already told you to insert in the equation the possibility that the Italians' actions could endanger American lives. In which case, what does the action (rather, omission) of the American Captain become?? At best, the American Captain made a bad judgement call.

BTW, I have already stated that the situation in occupied Iraq is quite chaotic (blame either luck -or the poor organisation and planning of the occupier) and that getting information passed on to whomever the hell should be informed in Iraq about the Sgrena car is NOT as easy as phoning 911. But, still, the American side seems to have snafus cornered: Poor overall planning from one side, soldiers under fatigue and stress, quite trigger-happy as it was -- a recipe for a bloody Italian dish.

[ QUOTE ]
I've been in the military since I finished high school, this discussion doesn’t even register on my strong language detector.

[/ QUOTE ] We should start a thread with atypical profanities. I'll beg Sklansky to switch off the filter.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
The car was travelling 40-50kph.
The barriers in the US report located 110m from the temporary road block did not exist
It was raining and overcast (where are those satellite images?) and the driver was slowing at a turn, whilst also using his mobile telephone (very Italian)
The soldiers manning the road block had received 12 days training
Two of their colleagues had been killed two days before
A light was shone to warn the car, as the car braked it was fired upon.
<font color="white"> . </font>
It's clear that this accident was caused by untrained, stressed, frightened kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well put. Just the facts.



[ QUOTE ]
No-one in Italy is asking for them to be arrested, no-one doubts it was an accident. I believe the Italians just would have preferred a truthful and honest investigation, rather than the US military trying to blame someone else for their error.

[/ QUOTE ]

And why is the American side NOT exercising what every CEO worth his fancy tie clips knows (see here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2302909&amp;page=77&amp;view= expanded&amp;sb=6&amp;o=&amp;fpart=)) to be elementary PR damage control??

Because of the overwhelming exceptionalism that characterizes the American post-Cold War posture. And arrogance. It's the arrogance of superpowers that begets hubris.

At which point, usually, the gods desert the all-powerful.

[lehighguy]

This whole thing started out with the women in the car stating that the American soildiers conspired to kill her on purpose. If you wonder why the US military ended up trying to put of blame that's why?

[smudgex68]

[ QUOTE ]
This whole thing started out with the women in the car stating that the American soildiers conspired to kill her on purpose. If you wonder why the US military ended up trying to put of blame that's why?

[/ QUOTE ]

No-one in Italy, or in their right mind, believed her. It's worrying the US military did.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
This whole thing started out with the woman in the car stating that the American soldiers conspired to kill her on purpose. If you wonder why the US military ended up trying to put off blame that's why.

[/ QUOTE ]

You start working for my competitor tomorrow morning.

[lehighguy]

This is what the post was about at the beginning no? This women lying? That was the title of the OP, or am I totally missing something here?

[smudgex68]

Cermis 1 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/294484.stm)

Cermis 2 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1162562.stm)

Cermis 3 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/294086.stm)

Cermis 4 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/290652.stm)

This guy was a coward as well

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
This whole thing started out with the women in the car stating that the American soildiers conspired to kill her on purpose. If you wonder why the US military ended up trying to put of blame that's why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the whole thing started out when the soldiers fired at them.

And don't be disingenuous, if you read the Italian report, that's enough to think there were no conspiracies while accepting mistakes were made by the military.

[jaxmike]

[ QUOTE ]
Cermis 1 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/294484.stm)

Cermis 2 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1162562.stm)

Cermis 3 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/294086.stm)

Cermis 4 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/290652.stm)

This guy was a coward as well

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever, it wasn't his fault.

[smudgex68]

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever, it wasn't his fault.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right - it was the society he was brought up in. Flying below the legal height was just a side issue, and destroying the evidence is what all honourable soldiers would do in these circumstances.

[lehighguy]

I believe your statement above. I'm rather reffering to what this post was about to begin with (before Cyrus hijacked it and started posting pictures of dead kids).

I believed people in Europe took her seriously. It's a relief to hear they didn't. It's hard to tell what they are thinking anymore now that we've grown so far apart.

[smudgex68]

[ QUOTE ]
It's hard to tell what they are thinking anymore now that we've grown so far apart.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right - justice is still important in Europe.

[jaxmike]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whatever, it wasn't his fault.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right - it was the society he was brought up in. Flying below the legal height was just a side issue, and destroying the evidence is what all honourable soldiers would do in these circumstances.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the pilot "In an interview on Italian television, he said "a lot of mistakes" had been made by the Italian aviation authorities and other organisations which had denied any wrong-doing."

Funny how the cable car system had been there for quite a while, yet "In the trial, Captain Ashby's defence team argued that the cable-car system did not appear on any military maps available to the pilots.".

Now, against him is this "Prosecutors said Capt Ashby flew the four-man jet below the 1,000ft (300-metre) minimum altitude specified by the US Air Force and marines. They say he also exceeded the speed limit of 517mph (832kph)." However, this is a limit set by the US Air Force and Marines for normal flight procedures, this was not a local ordinance from what I can gather. But again "Both sides agreed that the map issued by the US Government which Capt Ashby was using did not show the cable car wires." I wonder who supplied those maps to the US government. And finally "His lawyers said instruments in the jet were misleading and that he was used as a scapegoat by the marine corps." This I tend to believe, here is why. The cable car plunged 400 ft, correct? Well, thats about 1/2 of the 1000 ft. Where did this tragedy take place? "All but one of the victims were foreign tourists - mainly German and possibly Polish and Hungarian - travelling in a cable car 6,000 foot up Mount Cermis in the Dolomites."

So, basically, you are in mountainous terrain, with no reliable maps, with a 1kft floor with possibly malfunctioning equiptment. Yes, clearly the pilot is totally at fault. Not to mention the fact that he claims the Italian aviation agencies are partly at fault (I read this as he was getting some poor instructions/information).

[smudgex68]

Your post is a bit of a ramble. However, if it is to justify that cowards actions, shame on you.

[smudgex68]

[ QUOTE ]
he claims the Italian aviation agencies are partly at fault (I read this as he was getting some poor instructions/information).

[/ QUOTE ]

The cowardly pilot you are trying to defend, removed video evidence of what he was doing during his flight. This is not an honourable or supportable action of any military officer. Trying to blame Italian aviation authorities was not only cowardly but repulsive to the families of the victims. If he was innocent, why lie and destroy evidence demonstrating the truth. The time when people took responsibility for their actions and mistakes has now gone with the US attitude of never being culpable, and will result in further massacres of innocent people.

The fact you believe his lies is what is most worrying, but I know not a reflection on the majority of US commonsensical citizens. Blind faith in terms of killing people and believing you have a right to do that is a fascist/Nazi attitude and will be fought against strongly by all Europeans.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
Cyrus hijacked [the thread] and started posting pictures of dead kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dead Iraqi kids by the hundreds &amp; Reports by human rights agencies --&gt; evidence of trigger happy Americans --&gt; one more factor supporting the Italian Reports' conclusion.

Which was that the American soldiers at the (ill-planned and badly set-up, BTW) checkpoint reacted fatally wrong. (I call it trigger happy). The reason given by the Italians was that they were "scared, under stress and suffering from fatigue".

Just follow the lines.

[MMMMMM]

Reprise:

Cyrus, you still have not, despite repeated requests, offered one shred of evidence that the following assertion you made actually occurred:

Cyrus: "When the American tanks first rolled into Baghdad, Iraqi civilians who found themselves in their general path, unarmed men on the sidewalk, women raising their hands in the universal symbol of surrendering, children peeping out of a door, even dogs, were cut down where they stood by "precautionary fire". A wave of metal thunder, indeed."

Still waiting for some evidence of the above...

[sirio11]

Yes, and I still waiting for the famous satellite evidence that started this thread.

Do you care about that evidence also M^6?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Reports from Italy that public pressure upon removing Iraqi troops as a reaction to the incident is growing. Opposition leader call for this reaction as well.

Hopefully they will do it, it would be a brave moment in Italian history.

Putin openly opposing US, Blair having to reduce his support, Berlusconi having to do the same. Maybe a unified Europe soon can come together and be a totally indepent world stage force. More morality and tolerance and less cynisism would be the benefits.

[MMMMMM]

Sure, Sirio, but I don't know who initially made the claim about the satellite stuff. I do know who made Cyrus' claim, though.

If Cyrus is looking for a job in reporting, I hear the former employers of Jayson Blair might have a recent opening.

Cyrus: "When the American tanks first rolled into Baghdad, Iraqi civilians who found themselves in their general path, unarmed men on the sidewalk, women raising their hands in the universal symbol of surrendering, children peeping out of a door, even dogs, were cut down where they stood by "precautionary fire". A wave of metal thunder, indeed."

I think we might finally have found them a replacement;-)

Still waiting, good Cyrus (for that shred of evidence of the above?)

[lehighguy]

Which was that the American soldiers at the (ill-planned and badly set-up, BTW) checkpoint reacted fatally wrong. (I call it trigger happy). The reason given by the Italians was that they were "scared, under stress and suffering from fatigue".

Is a lot different from calling American trigger happy baby killers that kill for sport. But thats what you've been calling them for half this thread.

I still don't think they acted wrong, because I would have done the exact same thing in thier place given the circumstances.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
I still don't think they acted wrong, because I would have done the exact same thing in thier place given the circumstances.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is why the troops were cleared of wrongdoing. They did the right thing. Being "trigger happy" would have been the wrong thing. They acted how any rational person would, given the circumstances. Now, if I set up my own little roadblock on the highway outside of town and shot someone who didn't slow down, Cyrus would be right to call me trigger happy. But this is Iraq! Not some suburban street. My guess as to why this isn't sinking into Cyrus's head is because he dislikes the troops as evidenced by his shameless use of a dead child, claiming that Americans purposefully shot innocent bystanders upon entering Baghdad (w/o evidence and refusing to produce any under the excuse of "hijacking" the thread. Lame.)

If Cyrus wants to live in his fantasy land where all the troops are trigger happy, baby killing, monsters, fine. I don't think any of us (let alone sanity) will change that.

[lehighguy]

Brave moment in Italian history? You mean running away, shirking your responsibilities, and pretending the rest of the world isn't your problem.

You think politics in Europe are based on morals? Why aren't French troops in Darfur right now? Bullshit. Europe basis its politics on the same self-interest realist approach it has for decades. They aren't against Iraq cause thier better people, thier against Iraq because they know we'll do it anyway, it appeases thier local Muslim population, and its cheaper and easier to do nothing.

[jaxmike]

I am not trying to "defend" his actions. I am simply pointing out the FACT that he MIGHT not have been solely or even primarily to blame.

[jaxmike]

I understand that he destroyed evidence, and this is wrong. I am not saying his actions had honor and not saying that it is behavior becoming a military officer. Simply destroying evidence is not admission of guilt, though it makes it look suspicious. I think the he should certainly have taken more responsibility for HIS actions that WERE wrong, but I am NOT sure the he is solely and primarily responsible.

I don't necessarily believe his lies, however his accusations on the Italian aviation agencies have, to my knowledge, gone uncorrected by said agencies. I don't believe that people have a right to indiscriminately kill, that you would suggest that shows your ignorance. To then introduce the Nazi aspect is predictable and incredibly ignorant as well.

You are jumping to incredible conclusions. You are assigning blame to the American and NONE to the Italians who MAY be partly cuplable. You are disgusting.

[jaxmike]

[ QUOTE ]
Brave moment in Italian history? You mean running away, shirking your responsibilities, and pretending the rest of the world isn't your problem.

You think politics in Europe are based on morals? Why aren't French troops in Darfur right now? Bullshit. Europe basis its politics on the same self-interest realist approach it has for decades. They aren't against Iraq cause thier better people, thier against Iraq because they know we'll do it anyway, it appeases thier local Muslim population, and its cheaper and easier to do nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good reply.