First hand, BB, top and bottom pair

[dfscott]

Ok, so maybe a check-raise wasn't the best plan, but given that I went for it, now what?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

First hand, so all stacks are t800

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls t15, MP1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls t15, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t90) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t60</font>, UTG+2 calls t60, MP1 calls t60, Button folds, SB calls t60, Hero ???

[Unarmed]

C/R is a lovely plan and you couldn't have asked for a better result. I don't see the problem...

[ilya]

The pot is nice and juicy and you want to shut out the draws. Raise all-in. It's slightly more likely that you'll run into top two/a set since you have the Ad, but I think you'll get called by hands like bottom two and Ax often enough to make the play solidly profitable.

Nice avatar

[Blunderfull1]

Check-Raise backfired here. It got messy with everyone calling because it is a draw heavy board. Your probably ahead, but AT is possible. Your gonna get called by anyone with two diamonds or even an open-ender. The only good thing is you have the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I think your stuck, but you could call and bet into a safe turn card. If you raise all-in you could get too many callers. Considering all the bad players havent been knocked out yet.

[microbet]

You think it's too risky to raise to like 400?

[ilya]

Why encourage flush draws to call you? There pot is already big enough at 330 that you would prefer to win it right there. Raising to 400 pot-commits you anyway, so just push and give someone with a draw a chance to make a mistake by calling you.

I wouldn't be too worried about losing hands like Ax. I actually think pushing makes it easier for them to call you, as they're likely to put you on a flush draw.

[raptor517]

bingo. ilya hits this one on the nose. go ahead and shove. you wont be up against A10 because they would have raised. you are VERY likely FAR ahead right now. shove. holla

[ripped]

all in

[microbet]

I dunno, I guess not. Just a thought, but if you bet enough you are still making cEV anyway off of a flush draw and you can get other wierdos to either call you or reraise.

I had no thought of letting go of the hand.

edit: Especially this early in the tournament I think Ax is more likely to call half an allin. They may think the push is a flush draw, but they don't usually call it.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Why encourage flush draws to call you? There pot is already big enough at 330 that you would prefer to win it right there. Raising to 400 pot-commits you anyway, so just push and give someone with a draw a chance to make a mistake by calling you.I wouldn't be too worried about losing hands like Ax. I actually think pushing makes it easier for them to call you, as they're likely to put you on a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]I kinda thought you were going to say that. I realized this too late (after I'd check-raised to 350). I picked up not one but two callers and shoving in my last 400-odd chips on the turn blank couldn't shake either one. The diamond on the river sealed my fate.I'll just write this off as a $33 lesson (and my shortest SnG ever).

[microbet]

Well, I'm busy reading up on triple-draw-lowball so I can't do the math, but you can figure out whether going allin and folding them is more $EV than your check-raise and having two people call with draws.

[Meatmaw]

I've been thinking of one of the concepts in the Harrington book which says to maximize inducing mistakes in your opponents by betting the most you think they will call incorrectly, so would it be better to encourage more mistakes from them by betting the 400? Or what reasons are there to decide that winning it right here is inherently more important than maximizing the mistake in your opponent?

Or am I misinterpreting HOH?

[ChipLeaderer]

I would say just tread cautiously here. Extract money into the pot and be prepared to fold if a Diamond appears. If someone pushes fold.

Probably not an optimum play from a EV point of view, but important to stay alive in the SNG since your opponents will most likely be irrational fools who will call you with 2d 3d and sometimes bust you.

If you wait they will drop out of the tournament one by one and then you can start playing a more optimal game.

[Ryendal]

I'm agree with meatman and microbet point of view... I would have made a raise of 350-400 .

But I'm still not sure if it is the best move.

[Meatmaw]

I'm not necessarily saying it is the right move. I was actually asking in general if people agreed that inducing calling mistakes was more valuable than worrying about winning the stack right there, as HOH seems to suggest.

There are other draws in this hand and, while they may be competing with each other (i.e. not quite the 1/3 chance they hope for), I'm not quite sure what to do on the turn if I bet 400 and it's a scary card. I would think with the flop bet of 400, my fate is probably sealed to the river.

[Unarmed]

Reverse implied odds suck.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say just tread cautiously here. Extract money into the pot and be prepared to fold if a Diamond appears. If someone pushes fold.

Probably not an optimum play from a EV point of view, but important to stay alive in the SNG since your opponents will most likely be irrational fools who will call you with 2d 3d and sometimes bust you.

If you wait they will drop out of the tournament one by one and then you can start playing a more optimal game.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've got it backwards. You *want* to play pots with weaker players, because they will make more, and more costly, mistakes.

[The Student]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been thinking of one of the concepts in the Harrington book which says to maximize inducing mistakes in your opponents by betting the most you think they will call incorrectly, so would it be better to encourage more mistakes from them by betting the 400? Or what reasons are there to decide that winning it right here is inherently more important than maximizing the mistake in your opponent?

Or am I misinterpreting HOH?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're saying that pushing would prevent your opponents from making the mistake of calling, but C/Ring it to 400 would allow them to make the mistake of calling, I don't think you're misinterpreting HOH. However, I don't think HOH's advice is suited for a Party STT, because the stacks are so short and the blinds rise so quickly. Harrington's advice applies more easily to a MTT when you have a larger stack to play with so you aren't crippled if you lose the hand to a draw that hits. You have to decide what is more important for you right now - picking up the pot in front of you (which will lead you to push and hopefully get all draws that have a reasonable chance of beating you to fold, but will minimize the amount you might win), or by trying to induce your opponents to make mistakes by calling when they don't have the odds (problem here is that if the draw hits, you're crippled).

Personally, I go for the push (and hope to get called by an underpair) because I want to increase my starting stack by 50% and don't mind if the draws fold to me.

ts-

[microbet]

Since you are The Student, do you want an assignment?

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've been thinking of one of the concepts in the Harrington book which says to maximize inducing mistakes in your opponents by betting the most you think they will call incorrectly, so would it be better to encourage more mistakes from them by betting the 400? Or what reasons are there to decide that winning it right here is inherently more important than maximizing the mistake in your opponent?

Or am I misinterpreting HOH?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're saying that pushing would prevent your opponents from making the mistake of calling, but C/Ring it to 400 would allow them to make the mistake of calling, I don't think you're misinterpreting HOH. However, I don't think HOH's advice is suited for a Party STT, because the stacks are so short and the blinds rise so quickly. Harrington's advice applies more easily to a MTT when you have a larger stack to play with so you aren't crippled if you lose the hand to a draw that hits. You have to decide what is more important for you right now - picking up the pot in front of you (which will lead you to push and hopefully get all draws that have a reasonable chance of beating you to fold, but will minimize the amount you might win), or by trying to induce your opponents to make mistakes by calling when they don't have the odds (problem here is that if the draw hits, you're crippled).

Personally, I go for the push (and hope to get called by an underpair) because I want to increase my starting stack by 50% and don't mind if the draws fold to me.

ts-

[/ QUOTE ]

while an absolute gem of a book, harrington's reccomendatioins on the stt's do not work well in party's structure.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been thinking of one of the concepts in the Harrington book which says to maximize inducing mistakes in your opponents by betting the most you think they will call incorrectly, so would it be better to encourage more mistakes from them by betting the 400? Or what reasons are there to decide that winning it right here is inherently more important than maximizing the mistake in your opponent?

Or am I misinterpreting HOH?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's true, but there are two things working against you here: 1) at the first level some of the players are bad (which isn't bad in and of itself) and 2) you have multiple people in the hand. These two things make it hard to determine what the minimum bet amount should be.

Let's say I bet enough to give the player to my left insufficient pot odds. But he doesn't know that, and calls anyway (which is good for me). However, as soon as he calls (correctly or incorrectly), the next player(s) has better odds. This is what happened to me. LAG boy called my initial raise, making it easy for the guy with the real hand (KdQd) to call as well.

This also had the nasty side effect of making the pot so big that I now didn't have enough chips to put in a meaningful bet on the turn (another reason to push the flop).

[The Student]

[ QUOTE ]
Since you are The Student, do you want an assignment?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if you'll give me a gold star if I do a good job.

[microbet]

I certainly will. I have a 5 year old, so I'm sure I have some gold stars around somewhere.

I'd do it, but I'm trying to learn triple-draw duece-seven.

Estimate the likely $EV outcomes of pushing vs. half pushing.

Pokerstove (http://www.pokerstove.com)

Dethgrind's ICM calculator (http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~sharnett/ICM/ICM.html)

If you have any questions, let me know. It is a lot of work, so of course, only if you want to do it.

[Nick M]

I totally agree here. Move in. You get called by AK everytime.

I'm not sure who I would rather have call you though. The AK or the flush draw. You have a redraw on the flush draw and you have the Ace for runner runner. The AK has 6 outs on the turn and possibly 9 going into the river and you have half the redraws...off to the hold'em odds calculator.