Would you fold KK to reraise on Turn Straight draw board?

[JC_Saves]

I had KK the hand before this and won a little pot when no one improved to give me any action, couldn't pull off a CR on turn.

Got KK very next hand again. I knew the flop was terrible for me. I CR the flop. Was this a bad play?

Should I have just check/called down from the turn. I knew I was beat when I got reraised on turn.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Button folds, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (18.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 20.50 BB

[Nfinity]

First off, there are worse flops for you.

Flop: Bet out with the intentions of Reraising any raise. Your CR just made everyone more commited to the pot/

Thats all I can see you did wrong. The rest of the hand I would play exactly the same way.

[PokerProdigy]

This is a tough spot to be in. The check-raise on the flop was probably a great play IF you had some reason to think someone in late position would bet the turn. As it turned out somebody up front bet the turn which is ok for you in terms of pushing pot equity but bad for you in terms of protecting your hand. If you lead and where raised by UTG that would have probably done a better job protecting your hand. The turn is tough because you're probably beat, but the pot is now pretty large, so I'd probably call down from the turn on, because it's a huge mistake to fold the best hand in a large pot.

[PokerProdigy]

[ QUOTE ]
The check-raise on the flop was probably a great play IF you had some reason to think someone in late position would bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant the flop /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Nfinity]

IMHO for the CR to work here, you have to have optimal reads on most if not all players at the table. Your table would also have to be set up in such a way that your tight players are in EP, and all your loose concentrated in LP. One loose player in EP messes this plan up.

Or am I just being silly?

[cold_cash]

Bet the flop.

You raised before the flop, what makes you think someone else is going to bet?

Also, when you check and the guy on your left bets, your checkraise just swells the pot and ties everybody to it when you want to be doing the exact opposite.

[fluxrad]

-- blind post

I think I bet the flop...since I can't answer the question "WHO am I check raising?"

Other than that, your play is fine.

[DeathDonkey]

I think this is a pretty easy turn fold. Calling the river would be burning a dollar bill.

-DeathDonkey

[Nfinity]

Hero seems to be absent from the end of the betting, seems he folded by the looks of the pot.

getting 20.5-1 , and I'm relatively safe to assume there will be no raise behind me, I call.

Can somebody crunch the numbers and see how certain(in %) you have to be to fold here, do the math in the post if you would, I wanna learn. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[no1super2001]

grunching... (can we still call it that, or is it tarding?)

First, I do not like the C/R on the flop. It serves little to protect your hand, particularly since UTG bet. Everyone calling his bet will now feel obligated to call one more bet. It may have worked if a late position had been the bettor or UTG 3 bet the pot.

I have learned here the value in not making sneaky or fancy plays. Spending time being tricky is time you are not making a good analysis of your hand and the board, IMO.

It looks like you are beaten, but I hope you called one more in a pot that big.

[JC_Saves]

I knew someone would bet because of the fact there were a lot of people in the hand and the board was fairly innocuous at this point, and there were a couple fishes left to act.

This flop did not bother me much at all. I thought it was great until the 3rd str8t card came on turn. I think that I should have maybe checked on turn. His reraise pretty much ensured in my mind that I was totally beat here.

[ArturiusX]

Check-raising here does not protect your hand.

[JC_Saves]

the purpose for the check raise was to build a pot that I figured I would win, not to protect my hand.

I did fold the river, because I knew with 100 percent certainty that I was beat.

The turn reraiser had the straight. His play suggested to me that he would not have reraised without the made hand, which is what he had.

yes the pot was huge, but what is the point of throwing money in a pot that you know you cannot win. I mean if you had 22 and somehow you were in the pot that got big and there was lots of raising an calls on every street, would you call a river bet in this situation? I think it is a terrible play calling bets, even in huge pots, when everything tells you that you are totaly beat.

[xenthebrain]

I would bet out on the flop myself and at least 3-bet it when it comes raised back.

The turn is a really bad card for you. I would go in check/calldown mode from there and fold if it is two bets back to me.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
the purpose for the check raise was to build a pot that I figured I would win, not to protect my hand.

I did fold the river, because I knew with 100 percent certainty that I was beat.

The turn reraiser had the straight. His play suggested to me that he would not have reraised without the made hand, which is what he had.

yes the pot was huge, but what is the point of throwing money in a pot that you know you cannot win. I mean if you had 22 and somehow you were in the pot that got big and there was lots of raising an calls on every street, would you call a river bet in this situation? I think it is a terrible play calling bets, even in huge pots, when everything tells you that you are totaly beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh either you had a bunch of reads that you just forgot to tell us(not good) or you are being very optomistic about it being bet for you on the flop ..

as for the turn raiser has he been very tight with his raises, and only raising very strong hands .. or are you just assuming he could only raise with the straight its a big difference

you only need to win 5% of the time on the river to profit .. against unknown donks you prob still will(though not much more than 5%)

[GrunchCan]

First you said:

[ QUOTE ]
I knew the flop was terrible for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then later you said:

[ QUOTE ]
the purpose for the check raise was to build a pot that I figured I would win, not to protect my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

These 2 things don't jibe. Do you see this? If you thought the flop was bad for you (I'm not commenting on the correctness of this assumption), then why pump for value?

Moreover, no matter which direction you are coming from here (eg, pot-building or pot-protecting), going for a CR was a mistake here.

If you were trying to protect your hand (you have said that you weren't, but still...), then the CR was a mistake becasue it didn't offer anyone bad odds to call. Anyone who was right to call UTG's initial bet was even more right to call your single raise. Even had UTG 3-bet you, everyone would still be right to call.

If you were trying to build the pot, going for the CR was a mistake. You were the PF aggressor. You have no reason to believe that if you check someone will bet for you.

[JC_Saves]

this is .50/1.00 with 4 people in the pot. The likelihood of no one betting this were inconsequential and I was willing to take that chance, because I would bet on the turn, which I did even though I was not at all happy with the str8t card coming.

I normally do call down when I have a good hand, because I would not sacrifice a big pot for one bet, but I believe there are absolutely times when you know that you are beat, and in those moments when you have no doubt, I don't have a problem folding on the river. The few times I have done this I have not been wrong especially when there are multiple people in the pot.

Throwing away money by calling down bets just because the pot is big, is not always a good idea.

[JC_Saves]

I meant the turn was terrible for me.

[JC_Saves]

Grunch, if you are in LP and PF aggressor then yes, people might check to you, but if you were in EP in the same situation and then check the flop, people will bet behind you quite frequently, especially the .5/1.00 game. The vast majority of these players care nothing about position and play very marginal hands that could have been hit by this flop, and they will bet, or they will bet because no one else has.

A lot of times people with AK, AQ, AJ AT KQ, QJ and even JT will raise PF and then check the flop when it misses them.

I believe that the more people you have in the pot left to act has a direct correlation to whether someone will bet this pot, and if they don't you bet the river on some blank and they think that you are just trying to buy the pot and call you down.

Sometimes it is good to vary your play by going for the CR, or just passing on the flop bet in favor of the bigger turn bet. By CR every so often you will let your table know that just because you didn't bet doesn't mean that you are not setting a trap and you might by yourself a free card later.

It is not always necessary to bet out every time you have the best hand. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Dave G.]

This is a good flop for you. When you have KK, a good flop is basically any flop without an ace that is either not monotone or is monotone and you have the K of the suit.

Check-raising this flop is bad. Who are you check-raising? You were the PF aggressor, who is going to bet the flop for you? You need to know this before you try and pull something like this. Additionally, the player immediately to your left bet, so you didn't protect your hand (if that's what you were trying to do), you just tied people to the pot and gave almost any half-decent draw odds to call all the way to the river. This is bad.

On the turn, with this many players and four to a straight on the board, you have to check. You're out of position so you want to see what other people think of the board. If it comes back 2 or more to you you have an easy fold. If you bet and it comes back 2 to you, you've just wasted a bet.

I'm not even sure about calling the river. There's not much chance you're good here.

[Dave G.]

[ QUOTE ]
Can somebody crunch the numbers and see how certain(in %) you have to be to fold here, do the math in the post if you would, I wanna learn. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting 20.5:1, Hero would need to be beaten here 95.3% of the time for this fold to be correct. I think that's fairly safe given the action and the board.

With 20.5:1 odds, the math works out like this:

1 / (20.5 + 1) = 0.047 (4.7%)

That's the percentage of the time hero has to be good here to call. So 1 - 0.047 = 0.953 (95.3%) is the percentage of the time that hero has to be beaten here to fold correctly.

[JC_Saves]

In case you did not read this thread in its entirety, I will just say, when you are playing .50/1.00 and have 4 people in a pot, and of those 4 people you have at least 2 fish, then I would say that there is a 75% chance that someone will bet this flop. That is who I was check raising.

NOT every raise is meant to protect a hand. What did I accomplish by my check raise? If succesful I will build a huge pot that I am heavily favored to win. If no one bets then when I bet out on the turn, especially if it is a low card, I will get them to come along a lot of times because they will think 1) that card helped me, or 2) I am making a play on the pot, and they will come along.

Sometimes it is better to pass up a small bet in favor of the higher turn bets after they have made a second best hand.

With KK on this flop there was no reason to be thinking about protecting my hand. If an Ace comes on the turn, then that is just the breaks.

I think your reasoning of not betting on the turn is flawed, because if I was last to act on a board like this I would bet out whether I had the straight or not just to see where I stood, and maybe win the pot there. By betting the turn, I will either win the pot right there, or someone will raise me and let me know that they have the str8t, or maybe they just call and then when I bet the river, and get reraised I then fold. I would have expended the same amount as I did in this hand.

I think that I should have folded the turn raise. Hence my reason for posting this hand. I think that is where my play was bad. I should have just folded and let it go. I called which was the bad play, because I was beaten, and there was no doubt in my mind.

So the pot size at that point or on the river did not matter, because I believed there was 100% chance of losing this hand so pot odds of 5% chance of winning making it profitable did not apply, because, again, if you are beat, you are beat.

[crownjules]

[ QUOTE ]
With KK on this flop there was no reason to be thinking about protecting my hand. If an Ace comes on the turn, then that is just the breaks.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what you're saying is that a straight or flush draw isn't worth protecting against? I don't know about you but if I'm holding KK and see a very obvious draw board I'm going to do my best to protect my hand. You have more to worry about then the Ace falling, namely any 5, 6, 9, or /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

You have a LOT you want to protect against.

[ErrantNight]

this flop is not terrible for you. and i pay off here as well.

[wyoak]

nevermind

[IPSC]

[ QUOTE ]
I had KK the hand before this and won a little pot when no one improved to give me any action, couldn't pull off a CR on turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

** disclaimer: after almost 3,000 hands i am almost a break even player. very good possibility I'm a losing player though**

Why are you checking KK on the turn? Many passive players will call with anything on the turn to see if they improve by the river. Can't win a big pot unless you bet.

[bonaparte]

in the dark.....

I bet the flop and when somebody raises I plan to call down.

The turn totally botches everything. I check because there is too big a chance I am behind with 4 other players. MP1 waking up scares me and is probably a sure sign he has a 5. From here I don't know if I should call down or fold. You did the right thing on the river not betting.

[cmwck]

Well, first off, you weren't reraised on the turn, you were raised.

If you're planning on folding the turn, you should have checked/folded.

I don't like the flop checkraise. You really don't want to give a free card. THe rest of the hand looks good though,

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a pretty easy turn fold. Calling the river would be burning a dollar bill.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

You want to fold to a turn raise or fold the river?
Are you serious? I don't see how you can fold for one more bet in a 20BB pot.

[Schwartzy61]

Flop: How does the check raise protect your hand when everyone has already called the first bet? You have to bet and hope either UTG or UTG+1 raises to protect your hand.

Turn: I think betting is the right play here, just as betting out was more correct on the flop, and how you get your raise from slightly later position, I say you either Fold or 3-bet it and hope to make it heads up. It will protect your out to the K/images/graemlins/heart.gif and if you are only up against two pair you still have some other outs to the best hand and could be up against another overpair?

River: I think check/call is fine here. The action on the turn could really have spelled out your doom.

[12ozLongneck]

Bet the flop. The average .50/1 player will go through whatever mental gymnastics they need to go through in order to justify a call and do so. They're not here to fold. That's no fun.

I'm done with this hand on the river after MP1 came to life.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Bet the flop. A lot of one pair hands will raise and you can three bet which gets MORE money in the pot. If no one was going to bet, then you get more money in the pot (and some protection). If EP was going to bet, they may now raise, which will give you protection. If LP was going to bet, you would have gotten some protection by check/raising, but by bet/3-bet, you will still make the field face two cold (although admittedly now in a larger pot) but you will also be getting more money in the pot if they call. Betting out here is definitely the play. At these small stakes, people are WAY too lose, particularly on the flop. Make them pay by betting.