Knocked Out Hand #2

[EasilyFound]

$11 SNG. Pretty straight forward. Blinds will increase after this hand. I figured my hand was worth that kind of raise in that position. You'll tell me if I'm wrong. Got one caller. Was out of position for the rest of the hand. Missed the flop. Was hoping my opponent missed also. I figure, if I check, I'm surrendring the pot. I figure there is a good chance I'm ahead. So I push.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t2215)
BB (t260)
UTG (t2445)
Hero (t740)
CO (t1550)
Button (t790)

Preflop: Hero is MP with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t175</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls t175, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (t425) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t565 (All-In)</font>, Button calls t565.

Turn: (t1555) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t1555) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1555

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Ts Ah (high card, ace).
Button has 8d 8h (three of a kind, eights).
Outcome: Button wins t1555. </font>

[DasLeben]

Fold preflop. You might get away with limping, but I err on the side of folding this early.

EDIT: Nevermind...I thought by "Hand #2" you meant the blinds were still 10/15. At any rate, I don't like the push on the flop, like, at all.

[Voltron87]

hey he's actually listening to me.

STILL MORE RESULTS ORIENTATED THINKING PLEASE!!!

[Poisson7]

I probably fold this OOP pre-flop although might limp. However, assuming you made the plays you did and you're on the flop - I also like to fire at these ragged flops after a raise, but there's no reason to push. Make a half pot-size bet. If he plays back at you or calls you're done with the hand.

[Shilly]

I actually this is fine preflop, although you are committing a good amount of your stack. You will still have ~10BB if someone pushes and you have to fold, though.

You can't really do much with this flop. I think you're forced into checking here, as you can't really make any significant continuation bet with your stack size. Pushing and hoping he missed is a decent option, but lots of hands are going to call you here.

[hfrog355]

Agreed...limp if you can, but if someone shows a hint of strength, you're beat.

There is no reason to push because there is almost no way you're ahead in the hand. Any pocket pair is going to call and you're also likely up against someone with an A and a higher kicker.

[EasilyFound]

Is limping really a good option here? I thought raise or fold. As for making a half-pot sized bet after the flop, that doesn't seem right. I have only t525 and I'm supposed to be about t200 at a pot of t425? Doesn't that look weak?

[Komodo]

I think your preflop raise is too big, 3,5BB. Folding is ok, limping is also ok and even a small raise migth be acceptable.
I would also fire on the flop, but 150 or so.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
Is limping really a good option here? I thought raise or fold. As for making a half-pot sized bet after the flop, that doesn't seem right. I have only t525 and I'm supposed to be about t200 at a pot of t425? Doesn't that look weak?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, pushing looks weaker. It says "I don't want you to call. If I did, I probably would have bet less."

[Matt Walker]

I agree with the raise or fold mindset. I don't like the idea of limping here because it takes away suck a good percentage of your chips. I'd most likely fold since it's a 10+1 and those players seem to be loose with their calling standard, but I don't think a raise with AT is that bad 6 handed.

On the flop I most likely push and pray. If you check it I'd expect you'll be seeing a bet and giving up the pot. This would leave you with 550 chips left getting ready to post 150. This low flop isn't going to help hardly any hands other than a pocket pair. It's unfortunate he had 88, but it happens.

[The Yugoslavian]

This also must be a joke.

Yugoslav
PS Do you read this forum?!

[EasilyFound]

there are more jokes to come. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Voltron87]

I too am confounded by these posts.

[Cry Me A River]

I generally avoid stealing when there are still so many players left and I'm in EP (unless I'm low enough to be in push-steal mode, which you're not). If you're called you're often going to be out of position and could be in for a rough ride on a missed flop. What it comes down to for me is a table texture issue. If the table has been tight then I might limp (this is probably a leak, raising or folding are probably both better, provided you can get away from the hand if the steal goes bad). If the table's been at all aggro then I'm just folding it.

A steal is far from terrible, but T175 is too much. 3BB or 2.5BB if you can get away with it (tight table).

The other problem with this hand is that BB is so short stacked he's likely to push back with a wide range of holdings which you're pretty much going to have to call unless there are other players still in the pot in which case this is quickly getting out of hand. Either way, your FE against the BB (unless he's really terrible, which is not unusual at 10+1) is not great. So if he pushes back at you you're usually going to be a 60-65% favorite (Kx) or a coinflip (pp&lt;TT) while occaisionally being a big dog. Not really a great situation to be in for a substantial portion of your stack when there's still 6 players left.

When you raise PF, fish immediately think Ax (AK). The flop is relatively draw free, so your push looks weak and confirms this assumption as an A that missed - if it was a draw heavy board then your push could be interpreted as protecting a big pair. As it is, your push screams, "Please don't call me!" An appropriate bet size is 1/2 pot, which if you'd raised PF to T125 would be T150 (T160). You could probably even fire T100. If he calls/re-raises then he almost certainly has you beat and you need to check/fold.

Your action on the flop depends a lot on reads - If villain is a calling station or a passive player who will check it through rather than scoop the pot if he missed and only bet out if he's paired/better than you should check it. In this case, if you bet and he calls there's a good chance you're behind and you're just going to have to make the same decision again on the next street without really gaining much information since he could also be calling with a weaker A or two overcards. So just check it through and hope you win showdown with A-high.

If he's a tight player who will fold to your bet if he missed, then bet half pot (or T100). If he's aggressive enough to make a play for the pot even if he missed then bet half pot (or T100). But if you get played back, you have to get out.

This kind of hand is a real balancing act. You don't want to give them away by being too passive but you also don't want to go broke by being too aggressive. Still, better to fold a few that you would've won than go broke regularly in this kind of situation.

[EasilyFound]

I want to revive this a bit.

I was somewhat surprised by the posts about how to enter the pot if you enter the pot. Maybe folding is the best option hear given my position. But if you decide to play this hand, I would think that limping is a bad idea. Then the question becomes how much to bet. I always thought that the general rule was to raise a least 3xBB. Now I realized that I bet more than that. But others have suggested raising 2xBB and I've read many threads on this board disparaging the "micro" bet.

So I myself am somewhat confounded by the apparant conflicting advice about how to enter this pot if you decide to enter. Like I said, maybe it is a bad idea to enter this pot in that position. Would that size raise be OK if I were in later position? Or even then would a smaller bet do? If the answer is depends on the texture of the table, than that is the answer and I've got to pay closer attention to that during the course of my play and not rely so much on rules of thumb.

Thanks.

[Cry Me A River]

[ QUOTE ]

But others have suggested raising 2xBB and I've read many threads on this board disparaging the "micro" bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody suggested raising 2xBB.

[EasilyFound]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

But others have suggested raising 2xBB and I've read many threads on this board disparaging the "micro" bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody suggested raising 2xBB.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your preflop raise is too big, 3,5BB. Folding is ok, limping is also ok and even a small raise migth be acceptable.


[/ QUOTE ]

Guess you are correct. But I took the above comment to mean make a raise the size of 2xBB. Suppose it could mean 2.5xBB as someone else suggested. Nevertheless, there was at least one post, maybe two, that suggested limping in that spot. I thought that was the wrong move. So I guess 2.5xBB is the raise of choice in this kind of spot?

[tjh]

[ QUOTE ]
When you raise PF, fish immediately think Ax (AK). The flop is relatively draw free, so your push looks weak and confirms this assumption as an A that missed - if it was a draw heavy board then your push could be interpreted as protecting a big pair. As it is, your push screams, "Please don't call me!" An appropriate bet size is 1/2 pot, which if you'd raised PF to T125 would be T150 (T160). You could probably even fire T100. If he calls/re-raises then he almost certainly has you beat and you need to check/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Fish do not seem to put people on a particular hand. They think, "He bet he has a good hand" flop comes and you bet and they STILL think you have a good hand.

You give them too much credit.