KK 150xBB stack

[vanHelsing]

MP is super LAGgy and an idiot, CO is on the LAGgy side (PF 37/17) , but a as far as I can judge, he is a decent player.
COs reraise means a good hand, but mustn't be a monster. Could be to isolate MP.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">Hero ($157.35)</font>
UTG ($99.5)
MP ($81.32)
<font color="#C00000">CO ($280.84)</font>
Button ($47.22)
SB ($152.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $15</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $14, MP calls $10.

Flop: ($45.50) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $30</font>, Hero raises $142.35 (All-In)

Do you like it or not and why?

[BobboFitos]

I like it!

you catch any continuation bet from [Ak-At] [TT to whatever] etc - you said good hand, so whatever he'd isolate MP with that missed the flop or would fold to a bet that you'd lead out with.

If he'd call off his stack with AJ or QQ here, also, I really like it. Or, on the flipside, if he folds AA here (very doubtful) it's great, too.

I guess one qualm is you dont allow MP, the super idiot, to make a mistake, which leading at the flop would enable, but this seems fine to me

[The_Bends]

I like this too. You could quite easily sucker in a QQ who thinks you're making a move/wouldn't have called PF with a higher pair. You remove any draws. Since you don't think the CO RR means a monster you're not scared of AA. The only hand that beats you is JJ. Calling and allowing an A or club to fall would be a nightmare, if you have to take this pot down here then its plently large enought.

[Scorpion]

I think you need to raise preflop. Do you think you get called on the flop by QQ? Only other calls are JJ or AA.

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you need to raise preflop. Do you think you get called on the flop by QQ? Only other calls are JJ or AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

word.

[xorbie]

I'm not convinced he's trying to get called here on the flop. Pot is already $75, which is pretty large for a one pair hand.

That said, I like re-raising PF as well, except then you still lose $ from the super idiot if he folds.

[MarkL444]

i think an ideal plan here is to make it 40to go preflop and take it from there. getting this heads up would be a good thing.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
i think an ideal plan here is to make it 40to go preflop and take it from there. getting this heads up would be a good thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still dont see how your line is better then hero's line

[vanHelsing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...Do you think you get called on the flop by QQ? Only other calls are JJ or AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

word.

[/ QUOTE ]

One reason I made this play, was that there was a FD on board.
This has a 2 way merit:
- Super LAG probably will call with a FD.
- CO could put me on a FD and call with a couple of hands I beat. This is NL100 and I see semibluffs/calls like this regularly.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you need to raise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely a play I considered, but was unsure.
With all the "dead money" going in from MP, I feared a repush by CO, which would have put me on a tough decision.
So I decided to pray for a save flop and go from there.
But still not sure about it...

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think an ideal plan here is to make it 40to go preflop and take it from there. getting this heads up would be a good thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still dont see how your line is better then hero's line

[/ QUOTE ]

seems like hero is committing so many chips the way he played it when he has almost no clue where he is. how is that raise ever getting called by a worse hand besides QQ?

[-Skeme-]

Wouldn't re-raising preflop just eliminate more worse hands? And only get you paid off by hands that are better? I don't see how it changes the fact that only set/AA is going to be calling here and sometimes QQ. It also most likely eliminates Villain's continuation bet.

[MarkL444]

what makes you think youll eliminate so many hands?

[BobboFitos]

first:
[ QUOTE ]
what makes you think youll eliminate so many hands?

[/ QUOTE ]
Typically any 3rd bet preflop from a tight player is = AA or KK. Sometimes QQ, but only if they feel jumpy. Sure, this hand range is a bit wider if OP is playing looser/faster at the time, but to reraise from the blinds after an open and a reraise WITHOUT A QUESTION will eliminate MOST hands.

also:
[ QUOTE ]
seems like hero is committing so many chips the way he played it when he has almost no clue where he is. how is that raise ever getting called by a worse hand besides QQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't matter where he is, thats why! He's put 10% of his stack in the pot preflop. Whatever happens, OP acknowledges by c/r that the overall play accues more EV then any other line. Ie the times villain has AA or JJ and calls is outweighed by the times he has QQ and calls, or AJ and calls, or XX and folds.

Important note is that if villain does have XX, he still contributed 45bbs, which is a nice sum.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
what makes you think youll eliminate so many hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what raising does? Even if he minraised, which I think is crappy, it'd be a $25 3-bet to MP. I think he'll fold his AJo for that.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]

Typically any 3rd bet preflop from a tight player is = AA or KK. Sometimes QQ, but only if they feel jumpy.

[/ QUOTE ]
And what's the hand range for a tight player cold-calling a raise and a re-raise? Umm...last I checked, approximately AA/KK, maybe QQ. Hmmm.... way I see it, you tip your hand just as much by cold-calling but you get less money in the pot. Yes, you get his continuation bet, but if you re-raise preflop, that money could already be in the pot once the flop hits. And on a raggedy low flop, is he really going to check/fold QQ/JJ? Maybe, but probably not. So I think re-raising doesn't give any info that cold-calling doesn't give and it gets more money in the pot. I agree with Mark that it is a better play.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
And what's the hand range for a tight player cold-calling a raise and a re-raise? Umm...last I checked, approximately AA/KK, maybe QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given stacks, and idiot lag who will definately call the extra 10$ to see a flop and pay me off, I would cold call here with any pocket pair. I also think given the hand range of villain cold calling with AK may be fine too. So yeah, still a very tight range, but...

[vanHelsing]

[ QUOTE ]
And what's the hand range for a tight player cold-calling a raise and a re-raise? Umm...last I checked, approximately AA/KK, maybe QQ. Hmmm.... way I see it, you tip your hand just as much by cold-calling but you get less money in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, taking stacksize and aggressiveness into account, I probably would call with any pair.

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what makes you think youll eliminate so many hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what raising does? Even if he minraised, which I think is crappy, it'd be a $25 3-bet to MP. I think he'll fold his AJo for that.

[/ QUOTE ]

according to his read, theyll call with a lot. they could also be raising much lighter than you guys give them credit for. "super idiot" was it? i still say taking control of the hand now is right.

either way i think the OPs main interest is the c/r. i dont like it. as i said before, very few worse hands are calling. it really just comes down to fold equity + chance a worse hand calls vs chance a better hand will call, and i think the chance a better hand will call is just too great. committing too many chips there.

[TheWorstPlayer]

With this part, I disagree, Mark. I am perfectly happy to go to the felt with KK on this flop against these opponents. Once that has been decided, the question is to how to maximize money from worse hands. And I think the check/raise is actually good. It gathers some money from hands that wouldn't call anything and it also looks a bit suspicious (like a semi-bluff) to some opponents so might actually get calls from surprisingly weak hands. I like that play, once OP gets here, although I agree with you that OP shouldn't get here like this.

[vanHelsing]

OK, now it seems that the majority of the responders would reraise PF. I am not questioning that, just curious how you would proceed.
Let's assume you raise to 40 (reasonable, right?), donkey calls and CO pushes. I mean on the one hand you are getting 1.5:1 (assuming donkey comes along) on the other hand the push screams AA. Now what?

EDIT: Both call and you look at an uncoordinated A high flop. Your plan?

[TheWorstPlayer]

If someone pushes I think it is an easy call against these donkeys. If they both call and it is an uncoordinated, A high flop, then my default is to bet about 1/3 to 1/2 the pot. I figure, if they have an ace, they are not going to move off it no matter what I do. If they don't have an ace, then it looks like I am just trying to sucker them into calling with an underbet. And if they read it for weakness and call with a lower pair, all the better.

The only time I won't do that is if I am against good players who may read it for weakness and then raise me with a worse hand. If I am playing against someone like that, then I will make my standard bet with AK when I hit which is about 2/3 of the pot and then shut down if called. Sucks when you lose to dominated hands, but it happens all the time.

[-Skeme-]

Sidebar: What do the numbers mean in 37/17? Your VP$IP and something else? Please explain briefly. Also, what are the proper numbers for full ring NL? Thanks.

[vanHelsing]

[ QUOTE ]
Sidebar: What do the numbers mean in 37/17? Your VP$IP and something else? Please explain briefly. Also, what are the proper numbers for full ring NL? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]
VP$IP%/PFR%
Proper numbers? I would say that depends to your style.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Search is your friend.


VPIP/PFR% sometimes people include WSD% of AF also. And for full ring, of course, it depends. But I would say 20-25/10-12 but I'm a LAG so you can probably trust other people more. I also haven't played full ring in a while, I must admit.

[vanHelsing]

[ QUOTE ]
If someone pushes I think it is an easy call against these donkeys. If they both call and it is an uncoordinated, A high flop, then my default is to bet about 1/3 to 1/2 the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
1/3 PSB could definetly induce a move here. Half the pot would mean half of your stack. Not a too pleasant thought.

I just had the feeling, this hand plays less difficult unraised.
Remember, I never said CO is a donkey, - it's just MP who is brainless. If CO pushes the flop, it's likely AA, the problem is, I just can't tell how likely...

[Voltron87]

Your line is awesome.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
Sidebar: What do the numbers mean in 37/17? Your VP$IP and something else? Please explain briefly. Also, what are the proper numbers for full ring NL? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm 16/8. most of the winning players i have in my DB are 18-20/6-9.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
Sidebar: What do the numbers mean in 37/17? Your VP$IP and something else? Please explain briefly. Also, what are the proper numbers for full ring NL? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im 23/7 full, 33/12 6max

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
Im 23/7 full, 33/12 6max

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright, I'm a pretty tight player. Not weak-tight, but tight standards preflop and I bet aggressively post. I'm 12/4 after 14,280 hands. I've been limping a lot lately with 22-88 for sets. If I have them in LP and it's folded to me I'll raise. Hm.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm 12/4

[/ QUOTE ]
You are missing a lot of value.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm 12/4

[/ QUOTE ]
You are missing a lot of value.

[/ QUOTE ]

big big understatement

how can you only play 12% of hands? please tell me you like 16-table to keep you busy

i have to remind myself so often to fold something i'd love to play

[-Skeme-]

I 5-table. I don't play KJo, rarely if ever play KQo and other hands of the sort.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I 5-table. I don't play KJo, rarely if ever play KQo and other hands of the sort.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are missing a lot of value.





Seriously, if you are unsure of how to play offsuit broadways, post some hands. But those are definitely profitable hands for me and I'm pretty sure for most people on here.

[-Skeme-]

KQo, KQs, and AJo are all long time losers for me. Sometimes I'll play KQs or AJs for cheap, but rarely if ever for a raise. I'm not sure if I don't know how to play them, I just choose not to so I'm not really faced with these decisions very often. It's the way I was taught.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
KQo, KQs, and AJo are all long time losers for me. Sometimes I'll play KQs or AJs for cheap, but rarely if ever for a raise. I'm not sure if I don't know how to play them, I just choose not to so I'm not really faced with these decisions very often. It's the way I was taught.

[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously if that is the only way you feel comfortable, I'm not going to force you to do something different. However, I am pretty sure that if you look at one of those big EV hand charts that some sites have, you'll see that all of those hands are profitable. And if they are profitable on average, then you should be making a good profit with them. I obviously can't tell you what to do. But for me the purposes of playing are to get better and to make money. By not playing hands that are hard and +EV I would be both stunting my development and also leaving money on the table. But what you choose to do is your choice. You are definitely leaving money on the table, though.

[-Skeme-]

Right. I'm not disagreeing that there can be money made with them, I'm just saying I don't play them currently. I might start opening up and trying to play them now to see how it fits my style. Was just saying that all of those hands are losers now, and it could be because I rarely play them and the few times I have I was just unlucky in the hands.

Do you call raises with AQo, AJo or KQo or KJo?

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you call raises with AQo,


[/ QUOTE ]
Rarely.
[ QUOTE ]

AJo or KQo or KJo?

[/ QUOTE ]
No.

[-Skeme-]

Exxxcellennnnt..

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Exxxcellennnnt..

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? Were you?

[-Skeme-]

Hell no.

[vanHelsing]

He called in a flash and showed me Ac, As.
EDIT:
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8c ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ah ]