A classic situation...

[Garland]

I'm new to the table, and these situations always frustrate me...

Thoughts?

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Garland ($395)
SB ($425.20)
BB ($325.90)
UTG ($188)
UTG+1 ($614.60)
MP1 ($369.20)
MP2 ($289.50)
MP3 ($312.50)
CO ($209)

Preflop: Garland is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $4.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls $4, MP3 (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Garland raises to $20</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls $16, MP3 calls $16.

Flop: ($66) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP2 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Garland bets $49</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $98</font>, MP3 folds, Garland ????,

[Siawyn]

If I'm new to the table and have absolutely no idea who this guy is, I think it's a fold. Not many turn cards are going to be good for you.

If it's someone min-raising with a hand like AQ or AJ... well... we all know what eventually happens to those when you flop a set and they stack off for you. Of course it was a min-CHECK-raise. This guy wants to build a pot.

It would suck though if he made that play with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and took it away from you.

I try to think about these a bit more though. Lets say you get to the turn. What's your plan if:

A) an ace comes?
B) a diamond comes?
C) a king comes?
D) a 2 or a 3 comes?
E) A total blank (say, 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif)

Still given this specific set of circumstances, I think I fold and keep a close eye on this guy to see how he plays future pots. I'm definitely not raising here. I guess you could call, and see what he does on the turn but with no reads... I dunno. Some of this is probably my personal preference to avoid big pots my first few hands at a table unless I have a huge hand.

[EverettKings]

Yarr.... this is no fun matey.

What sucks is that you have no reads, and no way to get a read on this kid. However, since he's new and also has no read on you, he's less inclined to get tricky in a spot like this. A hand like AQ or A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif may be probing at you to see if you're playing KK or QQ or if you really do have the AK that you're representing. So I would say his range here is something like 44, 55, AJ, AQ, A9d+.

Folding is too weak IMO. You're beating many hands and this would be a nice pot to take down. A set is probably taking your money, but you want to take a bunch of money off of a worse Ace. You could push the flop, but I think all but sets and Axd run away. I would call the flop, and probably get all in on a safe turn card (he'll likely lead out for 70 or so). If the turn brings a diamond.... well, then you might want to get out, as you're running out of hands to beat.

Rough spot, but thats my 2 cents.

-Kings

[Siawyn]

Y'know, I always forget that little part.. that they have no reads on me either then.

The min check-raise concerns me but I could definitely see a big ace doing this as well. I agree it's a really rough spot. Making the right choice here is what can make the difference between a middling session and a nice one.

[radioheadfan]

I hate these situations so much. And I always seem to find myself in them early in a session as well when I have no read.

Here are your options:

1) Call the minraise and:
a) Intend to get all in if no diamond hits the turn
b) Intend to call down regardless of cards
c) Represent the flush yourself if it hits the turn and opponent checks

2) Push flop right there and then

3) Make it $200 straight and see what villian does. Obviously you're in deep [censored] if he calls the raise to $200.

4) Fold and choose and better battle to fight.

Damn tough situation bro. It's an extremely read-dependent situation and we have no read. This is why some suggest watching the table for 30 mins before sitting and playing. But we all know as poker players we dont have the patience for that.

[radioheadfan]

So what'd you do. You have results?

[arod15]

Move in. you hold a diamond and he might have AJ AQ ect. You raised if he has a set pay him off it happens from time to time. I dont see my self folding there at least call and check the turn to see how he acts. However i suspect villian is on a draw or weaker ace. How did it turn out?

[punter11235]

I would reraise here. He may have A-anything and just think it is good (you may bet with big pair here). I think most people (but I play lower limits) are just calling here with 2pairs/sets. He may have flush draw and just trying to win it now. So odds are you have the best hand. I would probably fold if got reraised again.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably fold if got reraised again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note with the current stack sizes, if I re-raise the check-raiser, I would be pot-commited.

Garland

[TheWorstPlayer]

Against an unknown, I will often call, fold to a bet on the turn or check behind and then call the river or check the river. I think people make this move too often with a flush draw to fold here. I at least want them to know that they are going to have to follow it up with a turn bet to get me to fold so that when I have AA here I make a killing from their flop raise and turn bet. The reason why I don't like a re-raise or a turn bet if checked to is because they often make this move with a set, too, and you are dangerously close to pot committal. I just want to see a cheap showdown here. If the flush hits, I might get out no matter how the betting goes, but if he doesn't bet until the river and the flush doesn't hit, then I have to call since I may have induced a bluff from the flush draw on the river.

[swolfe]

i think this is a weaker ace that wanted to catch your continuation bet with (what he thinks is) your KK/QQ/JJ/garbage. at this level, it could also be a decent draw looking to get a free card...

of course, it could also be 44/55, but i don't think most people at that level check-raise the set.

shrug, i'd probably raise it up...it's not usually good to back your TPTK with your stack, but you also need to not get pushed off of fairly decent hands...

[lennytheduck]

Call the flop and the check/call down unless a diamond hits and he makes a pot sized bet.

Obviously it's not a great spot to be in, especially if he fires a big bet on the turn. Still, there are too many bad players, even at 400NL, making this play with AQ or even diamonds OOP here trying to get a free one.

I know that a lot would argue to bet if villain checks a non-diamond turn, but you are going to have a to make a fairly significant one in this spot in order to make him call incorrectly with diamonds. Check behind and deal with the river accordingly.

[Garland]

I called when I should have folded. I have to learn that players have adjusted and don't play AQ or AJ like this anymore. I'm beaten by two pair at least, if not, the probable set. As for the flush draw possibility, it's possible, but in general, players are conservative with their flush draw. Against players I have more of a read against, I can probably make this call. Against an unknown, I should have folded to the "Danger, Will Robinson" mini-checkraise.

As for the people advocating a flat call to the check-raise on the flop, I think that's unacceptable as there are too many scare cards that can come on the turn to make me change my plans. The flop was definitely the time to get it all in or fold.

Ironically, I looked at his stack, and seeing that he has a "short" stack of $300, I could live with calling and losing. The added "benefit" of the backdoor flush draw (or me taking away one of his diamond outs in the event of a flush draw) also influenced me.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Garland

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">Garland ($395)</font>
SB ($425.20)
BB ($325.90)
<font color="#C00000">UTG ($188)</font>
UTG+1 ($614.60)
MP1 ($369.20)
<font color="#C00000">MP2 ($289.50)</font>
MP3 ($312.50)
CO ($209)

Preflop: Garland is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $4.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls $4, MP3 (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Garland raises to $20</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls $16, MP3 calls $16.

Flop: ($66) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
MP2 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Garland bets $49</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $98</font>, MP3 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Garland raises to $274</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 calls $269.50 and all-in</font>.

Turn: ($605) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

River: ($605) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

Final Pot: $605

Results below:
Garland has Ah Kd (one pair, aces).
UTG doesn't show.
MP2 has 4c 4h (three of a kind, fours).
Outcome: MP2 wins $605.

[Rococo]

The good news is that you are playing with a total f-ing idiot. I can't think of a worse way to play a set than the way Villain played it. The check raise by Villain defines his hand out of position, yet still gives Hero close to correct odds if he has a diamond draw.

[excession]

I'm new to the table, and these situations always frustrate me...
Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB

My thoughts are that you have absolutely no excuse being 'new' to a $4BB table at UB /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

You can use the handgrabber in GT+ to observe the table for 30 mins before you sit down then you won't be going in cold..

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
The good news is that you are playing with a total f-ing idiot. I can't think of a worse way to play a set than the way Villain played it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Uh....how do you figure? Villain got all the money in on the flop with the best hand the way he played it. I mean I am sorry that Garland got stacked here.... but it sure looks like Villain played it OK to me. Sometimes playing a hand like this fast on a draw-heavy board is the best way to get it in. Just because a 2+2-er lost does not automatically make the opponent a fish and an idiot.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The good news is that you are playing with a total f-ing idiot. I can't think of a worse way to play a set than the way Villain played it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Uh....how do you figure? Villain got all the money in on the flop with the best hand the way he played it. I mean I am sorry that Garland got stacked here.... but it sure looks like Villain played it OK to me. Sometimes playing a hand like this fast on a draw-heavy board is the best way to get it in. Just because a 2+2-er lost does not automatically make the opponent a fish and an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

nice read tpir, ni han

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Against an unknown, I will often call, fold to a bet on the turn or check behind and then call the river or check the river. I think people make this move too often with a flush draw to fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The reason why I don't like a re-raise or a turn bet if checked to is because they often make this move with a set, too

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As for the people advocating a flat call to the check-raise on the flop, I think that's unacceptable as there are too many scare cards that can come on the turn to make me change my plans. The flop was definitely the time to get it all in or fold.


[/ QUOTE ]
I was obviously one of the people advocating a flat call on the flop, so let me explain why I don't like your reasoning here. I think that you should just realise that there is a very high probability that you are behind here. Such a high probability that getting to showdown cheaply must take precedence over protecting your hand. Therefore, re-raising the flop is not good at all. But folding is not good either because how many times are you going to flop a hand better than TPTK when you raise preflop? Not that often. And if people see they can blow you off it by check/min-raising, then that is not a good scene. So I think you have to let people know that they need to follow up on the turn with a bet if they want you to fold, which will make semi-bluffs less likely against you. But you also don't want to commit a ton of chips when his most likely holding here is a set. Therefore, if he does, in fact follow up on the turn with a bet, I would lay down.

In summary, I am saying that a fold on the flop is the 'correct' play on this hand in a vaccuum, but for essentially metagame considerations (along with the slight chance that you are ahead here) you should call and then fold to continued aggression.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
In summary, I am saying that a fold on the flop is the 'correct' play on this hand in a vaccuum, but for essentially metagame considerations (along with the slight chance that you are ahead here) you should call and then fold to continued aggression.

[/ QUOTE ]

Metagame? I would make the same bet with a set of AA or perhaps KK or a lesser pair. So if my opponent has the nerve to put the move on me, I will have a monster often enough to easily handle him. Opponents in these games don't generally put the move on two opponents (note that MP3 was still in the hand). I have to think about the sequence of events. Two players called a big preflop raise, there's a better than good chance that one has a small-middle pair hoping to set up. Calling a check-raise for meta-game considerations may have merit in a limit game, but in no-limit, it's simply an expensive way to defend yourself against players who potentially make plays making call after call. I prefer to defend myself by pushing my nut or near nut hands hard and hoping to get played back at.

[ QUOTE ]
Such a high probability that getting to showdown cheaply must take precedence over protecting your hand. Therefore, re-raising the flop is not good at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

After the check-raise, there is no way, absolutely no way I'm getting to the showdown cheaply. The pot would be too huge and his remaining stack is going in on the turn, and if not, on the river if I flat call the check-raise.

Thanks for your comments.

Garland

[TheWorstPlayer]

If you are sure you are behind, fold. I would be hard pressed to say I was behind often enough to find a fold there on that drawy board without seeing continued aggression. If he bets the turn, as I said, I fold.

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
The good news is that you are playing with a total f-ing idiot. I can't think of a worse way to play a set than the way Villain played it. The check raise by Villain defines his hand out of position, yet still gives Hero close to correct odds if he has a diamond draw.


[/ QUOTE ]

Im not one to "pile on" but.....

WORST POST EVER.

The guy played it absolutely brilliantly....

As for defining his had....well there is an ace out there already and there are multiple draws...now is the time to play a set aggressively and hope that someone gets stubborn with AK or puts him on a HUGE combination draw.

If not he still drags a fairly humongous pot and protects against draws.

[Rococo]

Totally wrong and completely results oriented. Villain is not playing against four players. He is playing against one. My guess is that Garland will have a strong draw here no more than 10% of the time, and he will make his hand less than a third of the time even in those cases where he does have a draw. Consequently, you can't let this drive every decision in the hand.

Flopping a low set with position with an A on board is an optimal scenario for extracting money. You want to encourage Garland to do exactly what he shouldn't be doing -- playing a big hand out of position with one pair. If this is the goal, a flat call on the flop is much better because it forces Garland to decide whether to file barrel two on the turn. After all, he may be afraid that his opponent is on a draw.

Think about it this way. If you were to play this same hand with Garland tonight, would you play it the same way as Villain? Garland learned a lesson and he isn't likely to step in the same hole twice.

Lastly, lets assume that you are gambling the rent money, and you just won't be able to live with yourself if Garland draws out on you, why min-reraise and give Garland decent odds to catch another diamond? If Garland has a draw, it most likely includes the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, in which case he probably calls if you go all-in on the flop.