An SSH Move Fails Hard

[gaming_mouse]

See pg. 96. While the play failed here, it is the only street I'm comfortable with.

Do I lead the turn? C/fold it? Fold the river?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (4.33 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.

River: (9.16 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.16 BB

[tytygoodnuts]

I say fold the flop. Definite raise/fold situation and I don't think you have the odds to keep playing here UNLESS this guy is a maniac.

[MoreWineII]

I just check/fold this. Even if you have the best hand on the flop, you're going to be dodging so many cards on the turn and river.

[Jeff W]

I don't know why you're comfortable with the flop check-raise. You're not best and you're not going to eliminate draws. Meanwhile, your draw is weak. What is the point of the check-raise?

Edit: Btw, check-fold.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I just check/fold this. Even if you have the best hand on the flop, you're going to be dodging so many cards on the turn and river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. I knew I was missing something obvious.

[admiralfluff]

I dont have my copy of SSHE handy, but I think this flop is far too draw heavy to try this c/r here. When I do use this move, which I do frequently, if this many people come along, I check/fold the turn UI.

[Schizo]

Where in SSH does it have this move?

What are you trying to do with the OOP check raise here?

[That guy]

I don't get it... no overcard/kicker to your middle pair, fighting a 2-flush, vs a crowd... check-fold.

[chesspain]

I don't know if I'ld say the flop checkraise was horrible, but once it's called and the turn is four-handed (was someone all-in?), I'm folding after MP1 bets into the flop raiser.

[Michael Davis]

If this were somehow a raised pot preflop that might be enough to get involved in the mix, but as it is you have second pair no kick on a juiced flop and should generally just dump to even a late position bet.

-Michael

[Schizo]

[ QUOTE ]
juiced flop

[/ QUOTE ]

?? what does that mean?

[ckessel]

Problem is, this doesn't match the SSH example at all.

In the SSH example you've got:
a) a big pot (key)
b) 2nd pair and an overcard (you've got 2nd pair and undercard)
c) No flush draw and no quality straight draws (your board has both)
d) the hero has a back door flush draw (you don't)

Your board is an an example of when to bail, not when to push /images/graemlins/smile.gif More seriously though, if you thought the examples matched then something hasn't gelled yet in you on when to push and you probably want to re-read those sections.

[axioma]

yuck.

[Kluddeludde]

I think the pot is too small to try this move here. Just dump it on the flop.

Kludde

[bergh]

I'm sorry, but I find all streets terrible (not including the pre-flop check which is fine)! I would say other players calling down with weak mid-pairs is the main reason I make money on poker.

The pot is way to small to fight for - just check/fold the flop - there are a million ways to lose this hand. Just folding is the cheapest.

When your bad move at the flop fails you are behind 95% of the time. Even if you hit the jack you might lose to a flush or a better jack and hitting the seven might give somone a straight, so you don't have odds to see the river.

The river call is probably the least bad move. You can hope to split the pot with JT or J2 or maybe catch a busted draw, but I doubt it's worth 1:10.

The big differences from page 96 are:
* The pot is much bigger. (the biggest difference)
* The raiser is a pre-flop raiser who is likely to bet just overcards.
* The flop is uncoordinated, so the other are likely to fold.
* The unpaired card is a high card, so there is a chance you dominate the raiser.

[Schizo]

[ QUOTE ]
Problem is, this doesn't match the SSH example at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

The SSH example I'm thinking of is raised on the turn. Where is this in the book?

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Problem is, this doesn't match the SSH example at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

The SSH example I'm thinking of is raised on the turn. Where is this in the book?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the OP, boy. Pg. 96. As has already been pointed out, though, there are plenty of important differences between this hand and that one, and I should have folded the flop here.

Perhaps a better title would have been: "SSH Advice Misinterpreted by GM"

[mr pink]

i believe he means draw heavy or coordinated

[Michael Davis]

"i believe he means draw heavy or coordinated"

Yeah, sorry. I meant that Party Poker rigs their flops to put lots of draws out.

-Michael

[oreogod]

Ditto:

[ QUOTE ]
Problem is, this doesn't match the SSH example at all.

a) a big pot (key)
b) 2nd pair and an overcard (you've got 2nd pair and undercard)
c) No flush draw and no quality straight draws (your board has both)
d) the hero has a back door flush draw (you don't)

Your board is an an example of when to bail, not when to push /images/graemlins/smile.gif More seriously though, if you thought the examples matched then something hasn't gelled yet in you on when to push and you probably want to re-read those sections.

[/ QUOTE ]

And ditto again:
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but I find all streets terrible (not including the pre-flop check which is fine)! I would say other players calling down with weak mid-pairs is the main reason I make money on poker.

The pot is way to small to fight for - just check/fold the flop - there are a million ways to lose this hand. Just folding is the cheapest.

When your bad move at the flop fails you are behind 95% of the time. Even if you hit the jack you might lose to a flush or a better jack and hitting the seven might give somone a straight, so you don't have odds to see the river.

The river call is probably the least bad move. You can hope to split the pot with JT or J2 or maybe catch a busted draw, but I doubt it's worth 1:10.

The big differences from page 96 are:
* The pot is much bigger. (the biggest difference)
* The raiser is a pre-flop raiser who is likely to bet just overcards.
* The flop is uncoordinated, so the other are likely to fold.
* The unpaired card is a high card, so there is a chance you dominate the raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another thing, your hand, u have one clean out to a jack, two pair will probably be no good, your BD flush is probably dominated, you will have to dodge a ton of cards if you are already not behind a straight...the pots is uber small...FOLD. At the most Im guessing your hand is worth MAYBE 1.5 outs and even if u hit anything, how much of the time are u going to be ahead?

In the SSH example Hero has about 6.5 outs, board is uncoordinated, not a lot of draws and there is an overcard to the baord in heros hand = much more favorable.

Better title for your post: Dr. Miller or How misunderstanding SSHE I learned to stop raking money and loved to bomb at the poker table.....maybe thats a little harsh...sorry. Seriously though, u dont want new ppl on the board thinking SSHE is no good...u just have to understand the concepts.

[Michael Davis]

"Another thing, your hand, u have one clean out to a jack, two pair will probably be no good, your BD flush is probably dominated, you will have to dodge a ton of cards if you are already not behind a straight...the pots is uber small...FOLD. At the most Im guessing your hand is worth MAYBE 1.5 outs and even if u hit anything, how much of the time are u going to be ahead?

In the SSH example Hero has about 6.5 outs, board is uncoordinated, not a lot of draws and there is an overcard to the baord in heros hand = much more favorable.

Better title for your post: Dr. Miller or How misunderstanding SSHE I learned to stop raking money and loved to bomb at the poker table.....maybe thats a little harsh...sorry. Seriously though, u dont want new ppl on the board thinking SSHE is no good...u just have to understand the concepts."

I see no reason to assume two pair isn't good. A 7 on the board doesn't make any straight that wasn't already made, and the flop got checked to the last guy to act. Plus, if he raises and knocks everyone else out, his backdoor flush is not "probably dominated." And again since it got checked to a late position bettor, either both jacks are probably clean, or he has the best hand right now. You are discounting his number of outs as much as you are saying others have overcounted.

-Michael