For those losing faith in the value bet... [Archive]

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mannika

04-15-2005, 06:05 PM

Here's some medicine. Same guy both hands.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls, UTG+1 raises, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 4 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks.

Turn: (4.66 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises, MP3 folds, Hero 3-bets, MP1 caps, Hero calls.

River: (12.66 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 20.66 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has 6d 6c (full house, sixes full of twos).
MP1 has Kh Js (two pair, kings and twos).
Outcome: Hero wins 20.66 BB. 

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Jc Kc (three of a kind, kings).
CO has Tc Jh (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 12.50 BB. 

Edit: Original title made no sense

PassiveCaller

04-15-2005, 06:12 PM

These look more like bragging about the maniacal player you found /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I don't they'll comfort anyone in situations in which they perceive the player as at least more reasonable.

mannika

04-15-2005, 06:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
These look more like bragging about the maniacal player you found /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that was pretty well the point of the post. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

mantasm

04-15-2005, 06:17 PM

That sure is a razor thin river value bet in the first hand.

Luv2DriveTT

04-15-2005, 06:28 PM

3 bet the river in hand # 2.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

mr pink

04-15-2005, 06:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3 bet the river in hand # 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

mannika

04-15-2005, 06:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3 bet the river in hand # 2.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I didn't realize it was the same guy from the first hand until after I gathered the hand history, otherwise I probably would have.

jason_t

04-15-2005, 06:37 PM

Bet the flop in hand one, and the 3-bet the river in hand two.

mannika

04-15-2005, 06:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop in hand one

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Preflop raiser is directly behind me, and the only draw that I'm worried about is the spade draw, which I'm not going to get rid of by forcing to call a double bet anyways. I checked with the intention of trapping the field for another bet when the preflop raiser raised (or when he was supposed to)

jason_t

04-15-2005, 06:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop in hand one

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Preflop raiser is directly behind me, and the only draw that I'm worried about is the spade draw, which I'm not going to get rid of by forcing to call a double bet anyways. I checked with the intention of trapping the field for another bet when the preflop raiser raised (or when he was supposed to)

[/ QUOTE ]

There are more draws on that board than the spade draw.

mannika

04-15-2005, 06:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop in hand one

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Preflop raiser is directly behind me, and the only draw that I'm worried about is the spade draw, which I'm not going to get rid of by forcing to call a double bet anyways. I checked with the intention of trapping the field for another bet when the preflop raiser raised (or when he was supposed to)

[/ QUOTE ]

There are more draws on that board than the spade draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only draws on that board that I do not beat are those which will not fold to a double bet. Therefore, there is no need to lead into the raiser to force mid pairs or overcards to fold, only to charge them for their draws. Furthermore, with the preflop raiser directly behind me, I think that I can maximize my equity edge and charge draws the most here by going for the check-raise rather than betting out.

wrto4556

04-15-2005, 06:58 PM

The flush draws will call 2 cold, so betting the flop has value at least. Why give a free card when you can make money?? Plus, the pot is big, you'd actually like for the PFR to raise...it is just enough to get out gut shots.

jason_t

04-15-2005, 07:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop in hand one

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Preflop raiser is directly behind me, and the only draw that I'm worried about is the spade draw, which I'm not going to get rid of by forcing to call a double bet anyways. I checked with the intention of trapping the field for another bet when the preflop raiser raised (or when he was supposed to)

[/ QUOTE ]

There are more draws on that board than the spade draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only draws on that board that I do not beat are those which will not fold to a double bet. Therefore, there is no need to lead into the raiser to force mid pairs or overcards to fold, only to charge them for their draws. Furthermore, with the preflop raiser directly behind me, I think that I can maximize my equity edge and charge draws the most here by going for the check-raise rather than betting out.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are more draws on that board than the spade draw.

einbert

04-15-2005, 07:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop in hand one, and the 3-bet the river in hand two.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would even three-bet this river against 'non-maniac', but aggressive, players. Against a maniac I three-bet and pray that he caps.

Michael Davis

04-15-2005, 07:35 PM

"The flush draws will call 2 cold, so betting the flop has value at least"

In my world preflop raisers don't always raise when somebody bets into them on ragged flops, but most of the time they bet. I think his plan of checkraising flop is best when the PF raiser is directly to your left. Worrying about eliminating draws is relatively futile and you just want to jam them up for as much money as possible before the draws come in, and the best way to do that is checkraising this flop.

Add to that that if the PF raiser raises, you end up eliminating players with hopeless hands like JT that you will often end up dragging in for two dead bets on the flop and some more if they pick up a pair on the turn.

-Michael

mannika

04-15-2005, 07:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"The flush draws will call 2 cold, so betting the flop has value at least"

In my world preflop raisers don't always raise when somebody bets into them on ragged flops, but most of the time they bet. I think his plan of checkraising flop is best when the PF raiser is directly to your left. Worrying about eliminating draws is relatively futile and you just want to jam them up for as much money as possible before the draws come in, and the best way to do that is checkraising this flop.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Huzzah! Someone on my side! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

CallMeIshmael

04-15-2005, 07:45 PM

Flop is perfect in hand one. He just didnt bet /images/graemlins/mad.gif

3-bet the river in hand 2.

bobbyi

04-15-2005, 07:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Huzzah! Someone on my side! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
The people not on your side are being result-oriented. Obviously once you see that it checked around it is easy to say you should have bet. But this isn't usually going to check around. You played it right. If you had bet and everyone had called, they would be saying "why didn't you check-raise?"

wrto4556

04-15-2005, 07:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Huzzah! Someone on my side! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
The people not on your side are being result-oriented. Obviously once you see that it checked around it is easy to say you should have bet. But this isn't usually going to check around. You played it right. If you had bet and everyone had called, they would be saying "why didn't you check-raise?"

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right...when I first seen the flop my heads said "check/raise"...but I changed my mind when it got checked through.

jason_t

04-15-2005, 08:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"The flush draws will call 2 cold, so betting the flop has value at least"

In my world preflop raisers don't always raise when somebody bets into them on ragged flops, but most of the time they bet. I think his plan of checkraising flop is best when the PF raiser is directly to your left. Worrying about eliminating draws is relatively futile and you just want to jam them up for as much money as possible before the draws come in, and the best way to do that is checkraising this flop.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Huzzah! Someone on my side! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to point out that there are more draws on that board than just a spade draw.