Protect?

[QTip]

I'm pretty sure I screwed this up bad just want to confirm ...

I'm UTG+1 in a loose table with A /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG calls, I raise, folded to CO calls, button calls, sb calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gifA /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

sb checks, bb checks, UTG bets, Hero calls...

I love my hand right now, and I'm thinking I win this pot much more than 50% of the time. I called with the idea of not losing customers...

I think this probably sucked pretty bad. I think I should have raised. The reasons I changed my mind after I pressed call:

1. An ace probably isn't folding anyway
2. The straight draw probably isn't folding anyway
3. The raise is for value
4. The pot is already large
5. If a heart doesn't fall, AT might not hold up by itself

Did I miss anything? Now...can someone tell me why I'm such a donk when I'm sitting in front of the monitor?!

[synthtrance]

I don't see a problem with calling here, but you want to raise on the turn.

edit: on second thought, I think a raise on the flop is fine /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[mannika]

I think you got all of them. I would add in that any lower flush draws are not going to be fazed by your double bet on the flop, as the pot is large enough for them to draw to.

Also, is the ATs raise w/ 1 limper a standard play for you? Or was it based on a read of a weak/loose UTG?


Edit: I like the raise on the flop, if just for value. As long as you get at least one caller behind you, you're getting betting odds to the flush, and even if it gets folded back to UTG, you will either have the best hand, or will get a free card at some point.

[Piiop]

Raise now. Value, plus you don't want to lose customers on the turn if you hit a heart and raise. Weak str8 draws may fold.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, is the ATs raise w/ 1 limper a standard play for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard.

[cnfuzzd]

time to reread SSHE.

heres a start from the kong days

[ QUOTE ]
This means that flush draws are very easy to play... and play against. If you are playing a flush draw, you usually should play aggressively for the first bet or two on the flop, for various reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

peace

john nickle

[QTip]

I didn't lay out each player because of the stage of the hand, so I just said "Loose Game". UTG was 75/2/.77 - no kidding. Even so, the raise with this hand is standard for me.

[QTip]

Yeah...funny thing is, I'm in the middle of rereading it right now! /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[mannika]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't lay out each player because of the stage of the hand, so I just said "Loose Game". UTG was 75/2/.77 - no kidding. Even so, the raise with this hand is standard for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh wow, super-standard then.

[chief444]

Yeah, definitely raise. Reraise...cap...whatever you can get in there. If they call it's probably good for you anyway. If a weaker ace cold-calls two wonderful. If a gutshot straight cold-calls two wonderful. You're edge is just too much in this spot to worry about protecting. Worry more about V-A-L-U-E. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[QTip]

I'm UTG+1 in a loose table with A /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG calls, I raise, folded to CO calls, button calls, sb calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

sb checks, bb checks, UTG bets, Hero calls,CO calls, Button calls, sb calls, BB folds

Turn: 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

sb checks, UTG checks (crap), Hero bets, CO calls, button calls, sb folds, UTG calls.

River: 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif - oh boy

UTG checks, Hero bets, CO raises, button folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

CO wins with A4o for 2 pair.

Looking back, I don't think he's folding anyway, but I still misplayed this hand.

[HajiShirazu]

I think fastplaying is the best strategy for hands like these. Even though you do have a monster, it is just one pair, and the pot is big, and these guys seem pretty bad, and you don't want to give treys and fours a cheap card, so since they're calling anyway with bad hands, might as well make the most. And if they all fold that's not so bad either.
You have to raise somewhere and if you call and raise the turn, you might force out hands that would have made a bad call on the flop (5 outers and gutshots are making a horrible call on the flop here if they call two since you have the flush draw.)

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
I called with the idea of not losing customers...
...I changed my mind after I pressed call:
1. An ace probably isn't folding anyway
2. The straight draw probably isn't folding anyway
3. The raise is for value
4. The pot is already large
5. If a heart doesn't fall, AT might not hold up by itself

...can someone tell me why I'm such a donk when I'm sitting in front of the monitor?!

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not a donk!! Donk's don't think that much.

I'm going against the grain of the auto-raise replies and saying that I think the only REAL mistake you could make on the flop is folding. Simply saying that it's at a loose table isn't enough to make your action decisive.

Your opponents may be loose PF but, maybe they're not cold-callers and a flop raise will drive out offsuit hands holding one heart that would've called one bet to p/u the draw but not two bets. If you keep a couple of these players in the hand and hit on the turn you're going to have a chance at winning a HUGE monster pot. OTOH - If these guys are "cold-donkers" then raise-it-up and let them trail in with their dominated hands for a couple SBs. This seems to be one of those 50/50 plays where 1/2 the time you're raising and 1/2 the time you're letting the field trail in (and I like this line on this hand given that there's a large (4) number of players left to act after you - also your smooth call after the PF raise looks REALLY weak here - I wouldn't be surprised if it got raised around back by a weaker ace than yours - and then you'd unquestionably be 3-betting for value).

I think it's interesting that you had a first instinct while playing the hand and went with it. I also think that you raise 5 good and valid points in your re-analysis of the hand. Going with your gut suggests to me that as you were playing at the table you had some read/feeling from the play of previous hands that calling was the best move on this particular round. I don't think there's ever a problem with going on your instinct in close situations like this.

As I said - I don't think you could've made a wrong move here (except for folding). I could be wrong. Maybe this should be a value-based raise every time. Whatever the answer is, the biggest +EV part of this hand is that you're thinking about it from different angles!!! Keep up the good work!

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, definitely raise. Reraise...cap... ...You're edge is just too much in this spot to worry about protecting. Worry more about V-A-L-U-E. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Q was really worried about protecting here - I think he was worried about losing value from driving players out of the pot. And the more I think about it, the more I shift towards the auto-raise crowd.

My question then is: What do you estimate the EV difference at between calling to keep in customers and raising for value?

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going against the grain of the auto-raise replies and saying that I think the only REAL mistake you could make on the flop is folding. Simply saying that it's at a loose table isn't enough to make your action decisive.


[/ QUOTE ]
Crunchy, you're right in a sense. I think raising is better though. But I just wanted to mention that I know Qtip does an excellent job as far as table selection so when he describes a table as "loose" it's probably like 40%VPIP on average and very loose postflop as well. He can correct me if I'm wrong. But that was in the back of my head as I responded to raise so I figured I'd mention it. And I feel at a table this loose not pushing a hand like this is a mistake.

[adamstewart]

Raise the flop for value.


I'd like to point out a few things:

* Raising now may disguise your hand if you make a flush later on.

* CO and button already cold-called your raise preflop. Therefore, there's not as much chance that you'll lose them on the flop with a raise. Similarly, the blinds also called your raise...

* This pot is fairly large, so people will chase, even if you raise.

Adam

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
My question then is: What do you estimate the EV difference at between calling to keep in customers and raising for value?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, it's hard to say but I think he usually has 50%+ equity on this flop so quite a bit considering it's a loose table and he'll likely get a couple of cold-calls anyway. You don't know if you'll get bet into again on the turn among other factors. You know you can raise now with TP good kicker and the nut flush draw.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm going against the grain of the auto-raise replies and saying that I think the only REAL mistake you could make on the flop is folding. Simply saying that it's at a loose table isn't enough to make your action decisive.


[/ QUOTE ]
Crunchy, you're right in a sense. I think raising is better though. But I just wanted to mention that I know Qtip does an excellent job as far as table selection so when he describes a table as "loose" it's probably like 40%VPIP on average and very loose postflop as well. He can correct me if I'm wrong. But that was in the back of my head as I responded to raise so I figured I'd mention it. And I feel at a table this loose not pushing a hand like this is a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right here chief.