People who prevent you from eliminating other players. How to deal?

[BillFranklin]

5 people left on a SNG

-I have about 1900.
- Short stacked player (recipient of collasal bad beat the hand before) is at 275.
- Villian has 1500.

blinds are 100/200. I'm on the button. villain is in SB.

short stack goes all in for 275. I have 99 and figure to he's on tilt after the last hand. I raise to 500 to isolate. Villian calls.
- flop 10 8 5 Rainbow.
Villian pushes all in 1050. I fold.
short stacked player turns over A3o (about what i pegged him on) Villian turns over 73s. (that's right 73s!!!!!!)
the board paired 5's and the short stacked player won with his Ace kicker.

Whether it should have bothered me or not, this put me on tilt for the rest of the tournament i end up getting knocked out about 10 hands later. Do i have a right to be upset or this "just poker"

[Freudian]

While it is custom to check down to knock out a player I don't see it as unethical to bluff here. Perhaps this guy thought he would maximize his chance of winning by raising here.

When I get raised out of a pot like this I usually type "hope you have it" before folding.

I often bet on the river if I think there is a good chance I have the best hand in one of these situation. But never as a pure bluff.

[gh9801]

I hate those idiots too, nothing you can do about it.

[FishBurger]

I think I would have raised allin here preflop. There's 575 in the pot, so I would raise allin with the nines to pick that up.

If you just wanted to check it down, then you should have just called. By raising preflop you created a 500 side pot for the villian to bluff at.

[ZebraAss]

Fishburger is right, IMO.

[BillFranklin]

that was what i was thinking. that i should have pushed harder preflop. I guess i was just giving the "villian " more credit. I figured he would have realized what was going on and folded. When he went over the top i thought that maybe he limped in with JJ or QQ.

[lorinda]

Do i have a right to be upset

It was you that created the sidepot.

Lori

[HoldingFolding]

You certainly played it the way I would have played it. I don't like going all in here and would have laid down to the maniac's raise. However, in this type of situation the important thing is to step back, take some deeps breaths and reflect on the situation. You're still a medium stack and you know (if you didn't before) that you're dealing with a maniac. Perhaps easier said than done, but the ability to rise to this type of challenge will certainly improve your ITM.

[ilya]

If he's so crazy, just call him on the flop! Few players push that flop if they have a pair of Tens or better. Also, this flop could very easily have missed the short stack.
You can't auto-fold a pair just because 1 non-scary overcard dropped on the flop...especially not if it's the nut underpair with a backdoor straight draw.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
Do i have a right to be upset

It was you that created the sidepot.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

[citanul]

other people have made helpful posts here, namely lorinda. however, i take special interest in your post.

here's why: you have taken the effort to come to this forum and seek help with poker. that's way more than your casual idiot does, thus, you are entitled to learn something. so that's what we'll try to do. i'll attempt to do it in the conversational style, hopefully you'll post in response, and no one will jump in with the answers, or something.

(this is the question that i want to drive at, and help you explain for yourself) first quesion: give me any/all reasons that you think the player should have not bet, particularly if you believe he should have checked it down with you.

(this is the question that lorinda already drove at) second question: give me reasoning why you raised to what you did preflop.

(this has to do with why you play poker, and how you keep your head on straight) third question: why did it upset you? because you would have won the hand, or what? please help explain why this made you mad.

and that's where we'll start.

citanul

[JP Rocks]

I had a similar situation a couple of nights ago, small stack all in preflop for less than a minraise (blinds were 100/200, 7 players left, I had around 1200 chips), I (pocket 8s)and one other called. Flop came down 9 6 3 rainbow. I bet, the other guy mulled it over, and folded with a "you better beat him" comment.

Small stack filps over pocket 6s, which held up. The other guy in the menage a trois starts laying into me, apparently he had us both beat. When I asked him how he folded when he had a set beat, he shut up- I think he wasnt really paying attention.

I dont see what the problem here was- I wasnt sure if I had the other caller beat, but I felt pretty good about having the short stack beaten, hence the bet. Is there some poker code that says I should put the good of the table ahead of myself? If so, screw that...

[se2schul]

If the villain pegged you as either a weak player, or someone cabaple of folding tough hands, then he played it well since you'll likely fold to aggression every time you miss the flop.

How could this hand have unfolded differently if you had called instead of raising, or simply pushed preflop?

Personally, I would've pushed without hesitation, but I think that just calling is better than making a small raise while holding a mid PP. If you had QQ-AA, I think your small raise, would've worked well.

ss

[SonicReducer]

Well the 73 WAS suited....just kidding. I would have done what you did, except rasied it 600 to put a little more pressure on Villian.

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I would have raised allin here preflop. There's 575 in the pot, so I would raise allin with the nines to pick that up.

If you just wanted to check it down, then you should have just called. By raising preflop you created a 500 side pot for the villian to bluff at.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is the answer to your question.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]

Is there some poker code that says I should put the good of the table ahead of myself? If so, screw that...

[/ QUOTE ]

The "poker code" says that you shouldn't be bluffing at a dry side pot when a player is all-in if eliminating that player would move everyone up in the money standings. (Negraneau and others wrote about this in Cardplayer magazine).

These 2 situations are completely different. First off, there's a side pot to be contested. The side pot isn't trivial here (like T10 or something). By betting/raising, the bettor/bluffer is going after the side pot.

In the pocket 8s hand, there are 7 players left. Checking it down is not a consideration this far from the bubble (though with only 6x the BB, I probably would have pushed all-in pre-flop and never gotten to this point).

In the 73 hand, the side pot isn't trivial and a player makes a play for the side pot and happens to fold the better hand. If he had a read on the OP, then it's a good move. If he actually he thought he had the best hand, then well, that's a different story altogether.

[Komodo]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar till:</font><hr />
While it is custom to check down to knock out a player I don't see it as unethical to bluff here. Perhaps this guy thought he would maximize his chance of winning by raising here.

When I get raised out of a pot like this I usually type "hope you have it" before folding.

I often bet on the river if I think there is a good chance I have the best hand in one of these situation. But never as a pure bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

That guy had absolutely nothing to gain by this bluff here.
he is beaten if hero calls, and nothing is gained if hero folds. Its absolutely braindead play from his part

[J-Lo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
While it is custom to check down to knock out a player I don't see it as unethical to bluff here. Perhaps this guy thought he would maximize his chance of winning by raising here.

When I get raised out of a pot like this I usually type "hope you have it" before folding.

I often bet on the river if I think there is a good chance I have the best hand in one of these situation. But never as a pure bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

That guy had absolutely nothing to gain by this bluff here.
he is beaten if hero calls, and nothing is gained if hero folds. Its absolutely braindead play from his part

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel he can pick up those 500 chips... and good players with 500 more chips, can abuse the bubble in such a way to guarantee first for themselves...

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]

That guy had absolutely nothing to gain by this bluff here.
he is beaten if hero calls, and nothing is gained if hero folds. Its absolutely braindead play from his part

[/ QUOTE ]

He gains 500 in chips if hero folds. There's a sidepot here.

[Komodo]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar till:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar till:</font><hr />

That guy had absolutely nothing to gain by this bluff here.
he is beaten if hero calls, and nothing is gained if hero folds. Its absolutely braindead play from his part

[/ QUOTE ]

He gains 500 in chips if hero folds. There's a sidepot here.

[/ QUOTE ]

He raised to 500. He didnt raise 500. Sidepott is just 225.
So he is still losing chips if this bluff works.
Villain risked 1050 to gain 225!!!. Thats braindeaded play. Nothing else.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That guy had absolutely nothing to gain by this bluff here.
he is beaten if hero calls, and nothing is gained if hero folds. Its absolutely braindead play from his part

[/ QUOTE ]

He gains 500 in chips if hero folds. There's a sidepot here.

[/ QUOTE ]

He raised to 500. He didnt raise 500. Sidepott is just 125.
So he is still losing chips if this bluff works.
Villain risked 1050 to gain 125!!!. Thats braindeaded play. Nothing else.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said "nothing is gained if hero folds, I was merely refuting that assertion, plus:

[ QUOTE ]
short stack goes all in for 275. I have 99 and figure to he's on tilt after the last hand. I raise to 500 to isolate. Villian calls.


[/ QUOTE ]
This means the sidepot is 450, not 125 (nor 500 like I said earlier). If you want to dispute the pre-flop call, then be my guest. I don't like it either.

[mackthefork]

I think you were very weak here, there was a good side pot and an excellent flop for you, I call here in a heart beat.

He made a good play post flop IMHO.

Mack

[BillFranklin]

thanks to all the replies so far.

(this is the question that i want to drive at, and help you explain for yourself) first quesion think the player should have not bet, particularly if you believe he should have checked it down with you.

Looking back i guess i really should have pushed all in preflop here. I don't believe he should have "checked it down" I believe he should have not called a preflop raise with a junk hand. (i guess this is flawed thinking on my part)I know if the situation was reversed i would have laid down pratically anything other than a high PP here. Maybe i'm naive but in my mind when a short stack goes all in and another raises instead of calling the all in, its pretty obvious they usually have a PP and are trying to isolate.
I think i'm getting decent at reading hands and to me it was obvious the first player had weak ace or maybe weak king (which he did) and it would be fairly obvious to me that (if i'm not in the hand) that i had a PP. Maybe i gave the other player too much credit to be able read hands or maybe my thinking is completely wrong here.
I have realized something reading this replies. Almost everyone that replied stating something along the lines of "it was your fault for creating a side pot" At the time I never thought of this as "creating a side pot" My intent was a raise to prevent anyone else from calling so i could go heads up with a favorable match up.
As far as the villian bluffing on the flop it never occured to me that he would have bluffed in this situation given that i had shown some strenght preflop (apprentlly not enough) When he went all in, i truly thought that he had JJ or TT.
Also the other thing i didn't mention in my orginal post is that this short stacked player was, in my opinion at least, the toughest player in the game. He was only short stacked due to a horrible bad beat. (side note is that the short stacked player did indeed come back to win the tournament, he was that good)

(this is the question that lorinda already drove at) second question: give me reasoning why you raised to what you did preflop.

I'll be the first to admit this a leak in my game. I play alot of limit and am not great with making correct bet sizes. The blinds were at 100/200 and were set to go up in the next hand to 200/400. Also the game was getting to the point were everyone was playing weak tight and folding to all steal attempts. I guess i misread the flow of the game. I didn't think this player would be willing to call the raise unless they had a decent hand. looking back they were in the small blind (already committed for 200) my raise was another 300. So with the money in the pot (275 + my 500 + BB 200 + SB 100) the pot was already at 1075. There 300 put the pots odds 300-1375 (4 to 1) Was this enough to call with any 2 suited cards? What should have raised if i didn't want to go all in. An all in bet would be putting the odds at about 2 to 1 here.
Also,This is another thing i'm working on. I'm good with pot odds post flop but some reason i can't get the hang of pre flop pot odds. It seems (based on pot odds) you would justified calling anything preflop unless you knew for sure that you were being dominated (99 vs. 77 or AK vs. AJ) since your always getting 2 to 1.

(this has to do with why you play poker, and how you keep your head on straight) third question: why did it upset you? because you would have won the hand, or what? please help explain why this made you mad.

I play for the competetive aspects of poker. Granted i'd love to win WSOP or win millions playing like anyone else but i don't see that realistic at this time. I've really only been playing seriously for about 4 months and played well i think. I've never really failed at anything and that is why i want to improve. I have tried to read all i can about the game. I watch all TV poker i can (and yes i realize the differences between full games and short handed WPT poker), subscribe to several magazines , play several hours a day but also spend several hours a day reading this board or other poker books. I want to become a winning player not nessicarily a millionaire.

It shouldn't have upset me. Normally i don't get on tilt. I guess i was upset because i trully believed that i would have won the pot and if i won i really believed i would have won the tournament. My stack would have been around 3000 with 4 players left and high blinds which is a situation i'm pretty good at. I guess i saying i really thought this play cost me the tournament. thinking about it now i really still had a decent shot to come back and win if i would have kept my head straight which i didn't.



Thank you citanul for your reply and interest in my post. I have already learned a lot about poker from 2 +2. I appreciate it.

[nova]

I'm inclined here to push pre-flop if you want to isolate: you have villan covered and if he wants to lose the tournament on his 7-3 then his head is not in the game.

A preflop push would cause for a fold. Villan figures that he has some money invested already, and can close betting by seeing the flop.

The 'check it down' provides ample time for stealing for some, since I've noticed some people have done the 'I hope you have it'. It really doesn't matter if they have it or not, the goal is to win chips and if driving another player out of the pot (and possibly having them lay down the best hand) gets you more chips, then so be it. If given the opportunity to bluff at the pot in that scenario, a more realistic bet of around 300 or so from the villan probably would have had the same effect and caused you to fold.

Analyzing your play and trying to grow is the best asset here: knowing what happened in this scenario will pay itself off down the road, I'm sure.

[Jason Strasser]

All in preflop.