keeping the small / leaving money on the table

[schwza]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.5 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP3 ($47.5)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($120.05)</font>
Button ($46.25)
SB ($41.35)
BB ($45)
UTG ($107.9)
UTG+1 ($77.95)
UTG+2 ($77.2)
<font color="#C00000">MP1 ($91.55)</font>
MP2 ($24)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to $2.25</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $7</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG folds, MP1 calls $4.75.

Flop: ($15.25) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($15.25) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $8</font>, Hero calls $8.

River: ($31.25) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $9</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $27</font>, MP1 calls $18.

Final Pot: $85.25

no reads on villain, except that he's 6/20 in about 45 PT hands. this seems like a very safe flop for me. is this the time to throw "keep the pot small" out the window and try to get to the felt against a smaller pair? we're about 180x deep.

[FlipPoker]

I don't think this is a time to slowplay. With possible straight and flush draws out there, I just can't give a free card. I'll bet the size of the pot on the flop. I won't mind if he folds. There are 30BBs to be won.

[Rosencrantz1]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is a time to slowplay. With possible straight and flush draws out there, I just can't give a free card. I'll bet the size of the pot on the flop. I won't mind if he folds. There are 30BBs to be won.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Did he flip 9's full?

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is a time to slowplay. With possible straight and flush draws out there, I just can't give a free card. I'll bet the size of the pot on the flop. I won't mind if he folds. There are 30BBs to be won.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to the poster's stats on the villain there is no straight possible except for the Hero.

The only question is if the villain has a flush draw.
It's not very likey but he could have 2 hearts. Giving him 9 outs twice to beat you. If he only has 1 heart then he most likely has a pocket pair and is drawing to 3.5 outs. Or possibly AK-AJ where he has even less outs.

The o problem with slowplaying here is that it's impossible. Why? Becuase by definition for it to be a slowplay the villain has to be able to improve to the 2nd best hand, this isn't possible becuase any improvement gives him the best one.

The only thing checking behind him accomplishes is inducing a bluff, or making him think his JJ-KK is good and inducing him to bet for value against you. Either way win.

I think checking the flop was the best option. It induces a worse hand to bet against you getting you more money. The only hand that has more than 3 +/-1 outs against you is suited hearts. The money you lose when he hits those hands is easily made up by any aggressive action the villain takes. If he has 2 hearts you have to bet the pot to give him incorrect odds to call.

The only weakness in checking is that if a heart falls he can make a strong semi bluff if he holds 1 heart, and now you're behind becuase you don't have a good read on him. Unfortunately this is a big weakness since you have no real information to make a move, but I think you have to call here regardless. Even if he hits the flush you have 4 outs for a full house.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is a time to slowplay. With possible straight and flush draws out there, I just can't give a free card. I'll bet the size of the pot on the flop. I won't mind if he folds. There are 30BBs to be won.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Did he flip 9's full?

[/ QUOTE ]

i posted the full HH. do you think villain calls the river raise if he has a 9?

villain has QQ and i kick myself for not trying to build a bigger pot. what was i afraid of on that flop, exactly?

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is a time to slowplay. With possible straight and flush draws out there, I just can't give a free card. I'll bet the size of the pot on the flop. I won't mind if he folds. There are 30BBs to be won.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Did he flip 9's full?

[/ QUOTE ]

i posted the full HH. do you think villain calls the river raise if he has a 9?

villain has QQ and i kick myself for not trying to build a bigger pot. what was i afraid of on that flop, exactly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ack! Don't kick yourself. There were 2 hands to be mildly scared of on the flop AKh AQh.

Your check made him bet against you and allowed you to rope a dope him twice. The only possible improvement was raising more on the river. How much more you could of gotten away with may be impossible to calculate. You didn't play this wrong. Even if your reasons weren't correct.

[fimbulwinter]

If this was a pot played with you raising and getting many callers, then i think keeping things small is paramount.

since you are headup and re-raised an MP raiser, you are ahead on this flop always. you need to pot it and call a push from a strong sooted ace.

Honestly though, you're not going to stack off here unless you play it superagressive to convince him you're on AK unimproved. depending on your read this may or may not be the best way to play it, but it will certainly have higher variance. the way i play it is straightforward. I think you could have taken maybe 60 or 70 of his dollars every time.

fim

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
the way i play it is straightforward

[/ QUOTE ]

bet every street? (assuming no heart falls)

[ QUOTE ]
I think you could have taken maybe 60 or 70 of his dollars every time.


[/ QUOTE ]

so just concede you're stacking off against the unlikely A4 / 33 / 44? that seemed like the right way to play it but about 1000 times a day i read that you're not supposed to go broke with an unimproved overpair.

my plan was actually to call the river until the 9 hit b/c i figured that if i raised the river i might get reraised by JJ-KK. then i would be in a bad spot of folding the best hand or paying off 33/44/a4. when the 2nd 9 hit, i figured i would not get reraised by JJ-KK, so it was now safe to raise and fold to a reraise.

i wanna go back to 50x stacks where i can blindly get all-in with AA /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[PoBoy321]

[ QUOTE ]
Ack! Don't kick yourself. There were 2 hands to be mildly scared of on the flop AKh AQh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course he should be kicking himself. He gave free cards to a draw with what HAD to be the best hand at the time. Why would you ever do that?

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the way i play it is straightforward

[/ QUOTE ]

bet every street? (assuming no heart falls)

[ QUOTE ]
I think you could have taken maybe 60 or 70 of his dollars every time.


[/ QUOTE ]

so just concede you're stacking off against the unlikely A4 / 33 / 44? that seemed like the right way to play it but about 1000 times a day i read that you're not supposed to go broke with an unimproved overpair.

my plan was actually to call the river until the 9 hit b/c i figured that if i raised the river i might get reraised by JJ-KK. then i would be in a bad spot of folding the best hand or paying off 33/44/a4. when the 2nd 9 hit, i figured i would not get reraised by JJ-KK, so it was now safe to raise and fold to a reraise.

i wanna go back to 50x stacks where i can blindly get all-in with AA /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, there's almost no chance of A3 or 44. 33 is very very unlikely but possible i guess. given the preflop action (limper, then a raise) i think you'll see those hands like &lt;1% of the time. if it was an open raise, things kind of change, but only total loons raise after limpers with those hands.

as for straightforward, like pot flop, 2/3pot turn, 1/2 pot river. just enough so that he has to call every street.

fim

[sawseech]

there's no way in hell u shouldn't be trying to get allin here

[soah]

If you had open-raised then checking here would be good for shania/deception assuming you will also check these flops sometimes with unimproved overcards. But since you reraised preflop I don't see any reason to check. Your hand range and your opponent's hand range are both very differenent now. It should be pretty rare for you to reraise preflop and check the flop barring some very unusual circumstances.

[wdeadwyler]

I think this a very interesting choise. Most of the time (lets say 80%) I would bet every street, attempting to get as much money in as possible while I was ahead. However, every now and then, I like to check behind them, and induce a bluff. When you do that, then your line of play is correct. You have to make a read though. Either you read your opponent for strength (though not as strong as you), and you try to get him to your pot sized bets. I don't think your opponent will have a flush draw here enough times for your check behind him to be a potential disaster, but I would still lean towards betting this hand most of the time.

[Yeti]

Meh, this is bad. As everyone else has said, you need to play it a hell of a lot faster postflop.

Pot the flop, pot the turn. There's very little to be afraid of.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you could have taken maybe 60 or 70 of his dollars every time.


[/ QUOTE ]
Do you lose 60 or 70 dollars with QQ here? I doubt I do.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is a time to slowplay. With possible straight and flush draws out there, I just can't give a free card. I'll bet the size of the pot on the flop. I won't mind if he folds. There are 30BBs to be won.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Did he flip 9's full?

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with soah that checking the flop after re-raising should be rare. However, if I want to be able to check behind with AK then I might also check behind occasionally with AA. But when he bets the turn, I would raise. I would also sometimes raise here with AK. If he folds here, fine, I'll do it with AK also. If he doesn't, then pot is bigger and he is suspicious so you can definitely get him to pay off on the river. Also, do you really think he showed 9s full here? You don't even need hand reading, just English reading. He didn't re-raise the river.

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you could have taken maybe 60 or 70 of his dollars every time.


[/ QUOTE ]
Do you lose 60 or 70 dollars with QQ here? I doubt I do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would often check the turn after betting the flop to increase the chances of a weaker overpair paying off one more bet. And also because I'd do the same (most of the time) if I happened to have AK.

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]
I would often check the turn after betting the flop to increase the chances of a weaker overpair paying off one more bet. And also because I'd do the same (most of the time) if I happened to have AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what you're saying, but I kinda think that this is FPS at these stakes. Most people on 100NL will be married to their QQ on this flop.

[sourbeaver]

With the PF reraise, I bet this pot. I'm hoping he has QQ/KK and will pay me off, so I build the pot.

There is the off chance that he called with 33-44-99 to spike a set..

[edge]

With this flop, you're ahead every time. He probably has an overpair as well, so get a lot of money in on the flop. Overbetting may be good here, because he either thinks you have AA and will fold his whatever, or he doesn't believe you, and will call. This is not a pot you want to keep small, because you have the nuts on the flop.

[schwza]

thanks for all the responses.

as i hypothetical, what do i do if the action looks like this:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.5 BB (10 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MP3 ($47.5)
Hero ($120.05)
Button ($46.25)
SB ($41.35)
BB ($45)
UTG ($107.9)
UTG+1 ($77.95)
UTG+2 ($77.2)
MP1 ($91.55)
MP2 ($24)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A /images/graemlins/club.gif, A /images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, 2 folds, MP1 raises to $2.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $7, 3 folds, UTG folds, MP1 calls $4.75.

Flop: ($15.25) 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $12, MP1 calls.

Turn: ($29.25) 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif(2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero ??

check behind and call a bet on the (non-heart) river?

and if villain leads out for $22 on the turn?

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
Meh, this is bad. As everyone else has said, you need to play it a hell of a lot faster postflop.

Pot the flop, pot the turn. There's very little to be afraid of.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not sure why 1) you are trying to slowplay 1 pair and 2) you are scared of the villain.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Bet at least half pot on the turn in the hypothetical. His most likely holding is an overpair to the board and if he has a heart you have to charge him to draw to it.