I take this line alot....Good?..Bad?...Terrible?

[Carmine]

They all love to bet out here to test their Ace(at least this is what I always assume) Expecting me to 3-bet the flop so they can safely fold. Do you agree with my assumptions and the way I play the hand?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5.16 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 9.16 BB

[Kyle]

daddy likey

[shant]

Nice hand. I think I would've raised the turn in case he was betting his spade draw and he won't call the river raise if he misses.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice hand. I think I would've raised the turn in case he was betting his spade draw and he won't call the river raise if he misses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

But with a read that he is always aggressive until met with resistance, this line is okay.

[Klepton]

this is discussed in HOFAP (hold em for advanced players)

it says to take this line because it also scares the player with 2 two pair or even a set into just calling because it would be scraed of a monster...

and when they 3-bet you can easily fold

[Pokey]

Hmmm.

I'm assuming that you feel you're ahead on the flop, but remember that you've already tickled the pot once with your PF raise. BB bets into you anyways on a flop with an ace; I see a few possibilities, not all of which have you ahead of the game.

I guess I'm a bit skittish of the spade draw and the sets, and I raise the turn partly to punish drawers with bad odds but mostly to gain information. A three-bet on the turn lets me call all the way down. Plus, many players who have little or nothing will just check/call the river, at which point you lose 1 BB. I find I get a bit more play out of a turn raise than a river raise.

How do you respond to a reraise on the river? It's really hard to know what that means, and you'll probably have to pay off the A9 or 44 there.

I guess I see your point, and your line works for me if you THINK your aces/queen kicker will hold up on the river. I just don't feel abundantly confident on this flop, and I probably want to throw my weight around a bit to try and drive him off or beat him up.

Maybe I'm just off my rocker, though. Like I said, I think your play is fine; I'd just play it differently (raise the turn).

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice hand. I think I would've raised the turn in case he was betting his spade draw and he won't call the river raise if he misses.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you raise the turn, he calls with his spade draw and checks to you on the river then folds if he misses. You get 2 BB out of this. If you don't raise the turn, he still bluffs out with a missed spade draw and folds to a river raise. You get 2 BB out of this.

The difference is that a lot of weaker hands that would call a river raise, often won't call a river bet after a turn raise.

To figure out which play is correct you'd have to know how likely this opponent is to fold to a river bet after a turn raise, how often he's on a flush draw here, as opposed to how often he's on a weak ace here. Without this information I lean towards waiting until the river to raise.

[Carmine]

Good points about the flush draw in this particular case. Honestly though I really don't consider it to much which may be a big mistake on my part. #1 What are the odds that a lone opponent calling out of the BB hits a flush draw. #2 They barely have odds to call a draw let alone the equity to pump it HU. Not that many players will even consider these facts which is ignorance on my part. Giving more credit than I should.

Really this is just a variation of the C/call, C/call, Bet line. With C/call you don't have position and here you do, but you achieve the same thing...I Think? Win the most when ahead and lose the least when behind. Folding to a 3-bet on the river is read dependant of course. FWIW I can't remember getting 3-bet in this situation (I must have at least once or twice) and I use this line alot. As an example Villian took this hand down with 97o and didn't three bet the river..go figure.

Now you see one reason why I posted it. Even if he had the weak Ace I first assumed (as I usually do) am I being foolish allowing him to hit his three outter. I feel the pot is small that it isn't a disaster, but wanted your opinions.

[CallMeIshmael]

I dig it.... though a turn raise would also allow me to dig said hand.

[adamstewart]

I usually raise the turn in instances like these. I hate the feeling of giving up so many cheap cards that could beat me.


Discuss....


Adam

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
They all love to bet out here to test their Ace(at least this is what I always assume) Expecting me to 3-bet the flop so they can safely fold. Do you agree with my assumptions and the way I play the hand?


[/ QUOTE ]

In my experience, a weak ace also calls down a turn raise in these situations...


Adam

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
If you raise the turn, he calls with his spade draw and checks to you on the river then folds if he misses. You get 2 BB out of this. If you don't raise the turn, he still bluffs out with a missed spade draw and folds to a river raise. You get 2 BB out of this.


[/ QUOTE ]


Note the part I bolded: That's the issue isn't it?

I don't know how often they bluff out with their missed draw, seeing as Hero has called all the way thus far...


Adam

[TripleH68]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually raise the turn in instances like these. I hate the feeling of giving up so many cheap cards that could beat me.

Discuss....

[/ QUOTE ]

I mix it up, but like raising the turn most of the time here. I know it feels like you may give up something if the opponent folds, but if you raise enough the passive and average players will doubt you often enough...

When I have a solid read(which usually means live games) I might be more likely to wait until the river to raise.

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you raise the turn, he calls with his spade draw and checks to you on the river then folds if he misses. You get 2 BB out of this. If you don't raise the turn, he still bluffs out with a missed spade draw and folds to a river raise. You get 2 BB out of this.


[/ QUOTE ]


Note the part I bolded: That's the issue isn't it?

I don't know how often they bluff out with their missed draw, seeing as Hero has called all the way thus far...


Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that is the issue. In my experience I think they bluff enough with the draw, and play the rest of the hand ideally enough for the OP's line without a draw that it is a solid line to take.