Big push on the flop

[fuzzbox]

PP 100NL-6max.

Hero BB (100)
Loose caller UTG (350)
Unknown LP (100)
Others (not involved)

Thus far, loosey has check/called a few times for pot bets with middle-pair, no kicker, no draw, and bottom pair, no kicker and no draw.

I've got A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Loose goose calls, LP makes it 4 to play, I call, and goosey calls.

Flop is 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check, loosey checks, LP bets pot (11). I push ...

anybody like ? Anybody dislike ?

[xorbie]

Eh. You probably have over 33% pot equity, so if you are sure that loose guy will call, this could be +EV. LP could also just be making a continuation bet, and will probably fold over 50% of the time, which increases your equity quite a bit.

In general though, this is a really horrible call preflop.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Poor call preflop, especially out of the blind. And I would bet the pot here and hope to sandwich loosey in the middle of you and LP's (hopeful) raise so you can push it all in with some extra dead money in the middle. Which will also make it more likely for loosey to chase whatever garbage he has because he will have some money 'invested' already and the pot will be huge so he will want to get in on it. Since you are drawing to the nuts, you definitely want him in.

[BK_]

i hate the push. you want to take advantage of the loosie's bad calling. you do the opposite by forcing him to call 100 cold. he will only do this with hands that have an advantage over you.

the push vs the pfr isnt great either because you are risking alot to pick up a smallish pot and will get called more than you should by overpairs because of the flush draw on the board. you would be better served playing this hand to allow the bad player to make mistakes and put dead money in the pot.

[BK_]

[ QUOTE ]
Poor call preflop, especially out of the blind. And I would bet the pot here and hope to sandwich loosey in the middle of you and LP's (hopeful) raise so you can push it all in with some extra dead money in the middle. Which will also make it more likely for loosey to chase whatever garbage he has because he will have some money 'invested' already and the pot will be huge so he will want to get in on it. Since you are drawing to the nuts, you definitely want him in.

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i agree with this, except i am not hoping that lp raises so i can push all in. if he raises my pot bet, he isnt folding enough of the time, especially if loosie calls. if i bet the flop, i must feel that lp wont raise very often, either because he raises pf with alot of weakish hands, or because he plays his biggish hands passively post flop. the advantage of betting the flop obviously is that you get paid off much more if you hit your draw than if you would have check called the flop.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
Poor call preflop, especially out of the blind. And I would bet the pot here and hope to sandwich loosey in the middle of you and LP's (hopeful) raise so you can push it all in with some extra dead money in the middle. Which will also make it more likely for loosey to chase whatever garbage he has because he will have some money 'invested' already and the pot will be huge so he will want to get in on it. Since you are drawing to the nuts, you definitely want him in.

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If I bet the pot, loosey calls, and LP calls, then whats my plan for the turn if its blanks ? If it hits my 9 ?

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
i hate the push. you want to take advantage of the loosie's bad calling. you do the opposite by forcing him to call 100 cold. he will only do this with hands that have an advantage over you.

the push vs the pfr isnt great either because you are risking alot to pick up a smallish pot and will get called more than you should by overpairs because of the flush draw on the board. you would be better served playing this hand to allow the bad player to make mistakes and put dead money in the pot.

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Do I mind overpairs calling ?
If 88 calls then I've got 15outs twice, and if 99-KK calls then I've got 12 outs twice. Obviously its better if they fold, but am I in horrible shape if they call ? This move is far better with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif I guess as it gives me 15outs much more often.

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 3c 7h 2h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ah 9h 458 46.26 532 53.74 0 0.00 0.463
Ks Kc 532 53.74 458 46.26 0 0.00 0.537

So with the pot being 20, I can bang in the rest, and if he folds some overpairs then I win, and if not, then its not too bad because of coin flippage.

Also, the only "likely" caller is 77. 22 and 33 are somewhat likely, but 77 would be the most likely.

If I get called then I can do this later with a big hand and maybe get called by a less big hand.

Does nobody like it at all ?

:-(

[PinkSteel]

*I* like it! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

You only go substantially -EV if (1) loosey folds and (2) LP holds Ace-T/J/Q/K/A. But against the push he probably folds all those except AA.

If loosey calls, who cares what LP has, you get your flush odds.

[fuzzbox]

You're my new hero /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[fuzzbox]

With regard to the call preflop, this is a 6max table, and as far as I remember there were only 4 active players (perhaps that is useful information that I should have brought up before now).

In those circumstances, does nobody call with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif pf ?

[PoBoy321]

The pre-flop call is marginal at best. I'd prefer to have a few limpers coming along to make it, but I guess it's not so bad out of the BB.

As for check/raising and making a big push, I agree with jus tabout everyone here that it's a better idea to lead out and sandwich loosey to get some dead money in there.

[four eight suited]

[ QUOTE ]

Also, the only "likely" caller is 77. 22 and 33 are somewhat likely, but 77 would be the most likely.


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Your play screams over playing your flush draw. Sounds like someone has been reading a little too much SS. I think you get called with over pairs here too. I totally agree with leading out on the flop and pushing IF you get raised. It just not worth risking 100 to win 20. Your hand is a nice drawing hand but wouldnt be the end of the world if you saw more cards with both people in and you thought you have some implied odds at all

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
The pre-flop call is marginal at best. I'd prefer to have a few limpers coming along to make it, but I guess it's not so bad out of the BB.

As for check/raising and making a big push, I agree with jus tabout everyone here that it's a better idea to lead out and sandwich loosey to get some dead money in there.

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Ok with regard to preflop. I think it was 6-max, but only 4-handed at the time. I cant remember properly though. I think 4-handed this is a "play" hand, but maybe thats just me.

Anyway, if I lead for full pot and loosey and LP both call my bet and the turn bricks, then whats my plan ? Now the pot is 40 and I have 80 left, and I have a flush-draw, Im out of position and there is only one more card to come ?

How is that better than check-raising all-in on the flop ?

I have a "big" draw, do I not ? (well a potentially big draw). Mr. Ciaffone advocates putting in a big bet out of position with a "big draw". The pot is 20% of my stack, and that is well worth a flyer, with reasonably good fold equity.

Im ~50/50 with all overpairs apart from AA, 2-pair is not likely because of the raise pf. 22/33/77 are my only worries, and I dont put LP on 22 or 33. So if my worries are AA + 77 + 33 + 22 and I cant put LP on 22 or 33. Im even-money / favourite against pretty much everything else. Surely I can push here and be happy to win it, but have great chances to win it even if I am called.

No ?

[BK_]

you underestimate the EV of playing a flush draw oop with 100bb stacks and with 1 horrible player, and you underestimate the strengh of hands that call your all in here.