Good move or bad?

[Ghazban]

I've only been at the table for about 2 orbits and its been tighter than a gnat's arse. Not a single hand has been shown down and only about 60% of hands are even getting to the flop. CO has been raising any time he's in late-ish position and nobody is showing interest in the pot.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($183.55)
BB ($203.75)
UTG ($200)
UTG+1 ($156.55)
MP1 ($168.25)
MP2 ($200)
MP3 ($188.95)
CO ($239.45)
Hero ($210.2)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls $2, CO calls $2, Hero calls $2, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($14) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $10</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $30</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: $54

[Allinlife]

nh

[edge]

Fine. If it was checked to you, you would have bet at it, right?

[Ghazban]

Absolutely, but raising is a lot different from betting. I don't generally do this without a better read than I can get in 2 orbits but I'm wondering if its a good play in a more general sense.

[hfrog355]

I think you played the hand very well, considering the outcome, but what do you do if he calls your bet and a blank falls on the turn. Or if he re-raises you.

Comments from anyone?

[Ghazban]

If he reraises, I fold (unless its a minreraise, then I might call). If the blank isn't a K, 8, or club, I check behind or fold if bet into. If its a K or 8, I bet/raise and, if its a club, I check behind if he checks and push if he bets.

[The_Bends]

Nice hand

As a very general rule raising in this pot with so many players having limped and a bet infront with just 2nd pair, an overcard and a backdoor draw is a bad idea. Someone may well be slowplaying expecting a raise behind and if so you're in real trouble. However given your reads on the table its a excellent move. Not only does it give you a very good chance of taking the pot but it keeps the CO in line which could give you free cards later in the session when you have a draw. It may also losen the table up a little but then that kind of thing can go either way.

[Ghazban]

Nice post. I don't completely agree about the argument of not doing it because somebody could be slowplaying a monster. Somebody could always be slowplaying a monster (unless, of course, you flop the nuts). My raise ought to knock out any one pair hands, though (except possibly the original bettor's) and, if the original bettor is on a draw or pure bluff, I'm in great shape (whereas a call might induce another person with TPNK to overcall). If somebody does call the bet+raise, I can be confident they have a very strong hand (this is not always true at lower limits but seems to be the case more often than not in the 1/2 Party game).

Great point about the metagame standpoint (keeping CO in line), too; I hadn't really thought of that at the time.

[DrPublo]

This is pretty standard for me, especially since a bet from the CO could be pre-emptively trying to steal the pot.

It helps that you have backdoor outs as well.

nh

The Doc

[MarkL444]

well you cant call and you cant fold. nice raise.

[hfrog355]

Excellent point, in very few words.

[edge]

[ QUOTE ]
Absolutely, but raising is a lot different from betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

For one thing, it's a lot more likely to take down the pot, since it doesn't look like a steal. It's a lot stronger and more likely to win than betting if it was checked to you, given your read on CO (plus you get CO's $10).

[Sakuraba]

I don't actually like it all that much. "Improve your Poker" has a decent little article about this called "Where Did He Come From" (or something likt that) It basically talks about the fact that with seven players seeing this flop, it rates to hit someone.

The CO might be aggressive, but you said the game was tight so he has been betting into small fields. He may know better than to try to bluff 6 other players. Also, with six players in the hand, you have to worry that someone is slowplaying a hand to try to catch the habitual bluffer.

It worked, but I think there are berrer spots for this play.

[just2ska]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't actually like it all that much. "Improve your Poker" has a decent little article about this called "Where Did He Come From" (or something likt that) It basically talks about the fact that with seven players seeing this flop, it rates to hit someone.

The CO might be aggressive, but you said the game was tight so he has been betting into small fields. He may know better than to try to bluff 6 other players. Also, with six players in the hand, you have to worry that someone is slowplaying a hand to try to catch the habitual bluffer.

It worked, but I think there are berrer spots for this play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this post. If it's three-way or only you and CO (the habitual bluffer) then I like this play... you're lucky that CO is ballsy and willing to bet with a weak hand when 6 people are in the hand... i think most of the time this play isn't going to work in this situation.

However; I can see why you'd want to raise this guy w/ the read you have. Just be careful when there's that many people in the pot.

just2ska

[TheWorstPlayer]

I actually think it is a decent move with that many people in since there is a fairly high chance that someone has a draw that you want to protect against, and it seems like less of a steal. 3 way, I don't think you are getting someone to fold TP here, but with this many people, you might even get CO to fold TP since this looks like a much stronger move. On this draw heavy board, it is unlikely someone would slowplay a monster unless they are specifically trying to trap the CO.

[BK_]

the only way i make this raise is if the guy is a known aggressive donk, which you say he is. just wanted to point out that it isnt an automatic move vs a standard player. there are simply too many people in the pot, and as such a bet normally means something, from late position or not

[TrailofTears]

[ QUOTE ]
just wanted to point out that it isnt an automatic move vs a standard player

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my thought as well. Actually, a lot of what your post said I agree with. And I also don't really understand why people are discrediting the idea that someone in the blinds or EP would check their set, expecting a bet from the remaining six people. Everyone here has said that this flop hit someone/a few players, be it a made hand or a draw, and I would fully expect one of those players to bet it if I was early with a set. I guess I just don't really like the move that much, even against this CO. I suppose the argument could be made (and maybe has, I don't know) that this hand is easy to dump if called or played back at, but I don't want to risk this much money to win that pot. To me, this is a "why get involved" hand, not a "let's make a fancy play given my read on only one of the players here" hand. As usual, JMO.

-Trail

[Suntzu00000]

I am all for being aggressive, but raising into a 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif board with 5 players behind you who all got to see a cheap flop might not be the best play. Obviously I can't argue with the outcome, but I think with that many players behind you there is a real risk of a set or two-pair or somebody playing something like 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and you getting hammered for all your chips.

Also, if you are called, your raise puts you into a dangerous position on the turn if a card higher than an 8 comes that isn't a King. Anyone disagree?

[JMBills]

I admire this play because it shows the audacity to take advantage of an observation; despite the board if you've noticed the table is tight postflop you have to imagine you have massive folding equity on your semi bluff.

Monsters can lurk around every board texture, but that's exactly what tight-weak players see (I can say this from personal experience) and that's what makes this play good against a really tight table.

[just2ska]

[ QUOTE ]
I admire this play because it shows the audacity to take advantage of an observation; despite the board if you've noticed the table is tight postflop you have to imagine you have massive folding equity on your semi bluff.

Monsters can lurk around every board texture, but that's exactly what tight-weak players see (I can say this from personal experience) and that's what makes this play good against a really tight table.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can agree with that

[Ghazban]

I agree that, at a table of loose players, the probability of this move working is low but, as I stated in the original post, this table was very tight and CO was taking advantage of this by going after pots nobody else looked interested in.

Sure its likely that this flop hit somebody with this many people in but there's a HUGE difference between the flop hitting somebody and the flop hitting someone at a tight table hard enough for them to want to keep playing when facing a bet and a raise.

Much of the benefit of the move comes from making better hands fold (TPNK (particularly KT, which has me in big trouble), 99, JJ, two big hearts). A lot of the comments in this thread seem to be overlooking that aspect of the situation.

Obviously, I'm in trouble IF CALLED but, even then, I have position (so I can probably take a free card on the turn) and can back into some very strong hands. Even if I'm called, there's a reasonable chance I'll get to see the turn and river without having to put any more money in the pot.

[four eight suited]

Given the table image and your read on the CO I like your play. It becomes dicey if he reraises or just calls and puts in another bet on the turn especially if it seems like a blank. I must say if I were the CO I would bet this flop regaurdless of my holdings since everyone checked to me. I love the position bet steal in this place, it makes you seem stronger and less like you are stealing