Wow what a sick overbet..... now I'm confused with bottom two.

[Sponger15SB]

$25nl 6-max, no reads, cause villian just sat down, we've both got $25


Villian limps in MP, I limp in the CO with 98s, SB calls, BB checks.


Flop is T 9 8 rainbow

SB checks, BB checks, Villian bets $5?!?!

[mythrilfox]

Call a raise a non-scary turn. You are roughly even money against JT, which is his most likely holding, and he will probably bet it again on the turn regardless of what falls.

Or he could just have the lone J. Or a weak ten. But I still prefer raising the turn.

[Trainwreck]

3 to a high end straight is always trouble to 2 pair.

I'd fold and pick a better spot to get my money in, and I don't care if it's considered weak/tight, it's NL and I am trapping, not being trapped.

Even if they have just xT, they have r/r pair, 3 x, and 2 tens, to break you, you have 4 outer redraw/buttsaver only and NOTHING else other then a rare SPLIT.

>TW<

[RiverTheNuts]

dont lose a buyin over a 25 cent limp, its just not worth it, a set could bet like this, JT could bet like this, QJ could bet like this, you arent looking too hot against any of them

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont go broke in an unraised pot.

- Doyle Brunson

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont go broke in an unraised pot.

- Doyle Brunson

[/ QUOTE ]
There's no rule against doubling up in an unraised pot. This is a call.

[Yeti]

This is $25NL. At the $1000's, you may be suspicious of this overbet. Here, I don't think you can afford to be. I'm quite happy to go to the felt here unless you know Villain is tricky.

It's farrrrr more likely he has QQ/JJ/AJ/AT/JT than the hands you are behind at this point.

Call. Or chuck it all in. I don't think the latter is that bad of an option against these quality of players.

[mythrilfox]

God, some of the folds you people have been posting recently are just appalling. It doesn't help to say what hands Villain "could" have here. Sure, he could have QJ. Sure, he could get pocket aces every hand. Sure, he could flop the nuts every hand. You will lose a lot of money in NL thinking like this.

The fact that it's an unraised pot is really somewhat irrelevant, as Villain has you beat here nearly 0% of the time. Like another poster said, there's no rule against doubling up in an unraised pot.

Given the action, what could you put Villain on? Why would a set/straight bet like this? Does he want to push you out?

A fold here would be outrageous.

[bingledork]

Lay it down!

People bet aggressively on this flop with the sucker straight, sets, and two-pair. You're losing to all of them and tied with one.

The overbet says to me "I want to take this pot down now" because villian's afraid of a bigger straight.

I've played with crazy players that I'd call this bet against, but without that read, I'd fold.

[edge]

[ QUOTE ]
This is $25NL ...

Call. Or chuck it all in. I don't think the latter is that bad of an option against these quality of players.

[/ QUOTE ]

[PinkSteel]

[ QUOTE ]
Lay it down!

People bet aggressively on this flop with the sucker straight, sets, and two-pair. You're losing to all of them and tied with one.

The overbet says to me "I want to take this pot down now" because villian's afraid of a bigger straight.

I've played with crazy players that I'd call this bet against, but without that read, I'd fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

The most valuable three words I've learned since picking up this game:

"Why get involved?"

[Allinlife]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lay it down!

People bet aggressively on this flop with the sucker straight, sets, and two-pair. You're losing to all of them and tied with one.

The overbet says to me "I want to take this pot down now" because villian's afraid of a bigger straight.

I've played with crazy players that I'd call this bet against, but without that read, I'd fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

The most valuable three words I've learned since picking up this game:

"Why get involved?"

[/ QUOTE ]
You get involved because you have positive expected value.

however, this looks like a fold...getting heavy action with bottom 2 on coordinated board often sucks and loses money.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain has you beat here nearly 0% of the time.

Why would a set/straight bet like this? Does he want to push you out?

A fold here would be outrageous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thoughtful input is good. Ridiculous comments are bad. Villain has you beat slightly more than 0% of the time. I would guess around 30% or so. He would bet like that with a straight/set to get people like you to go allin because he has a 0% chance of being ahead. He would also like to push out oesd's and inside draws with a set or sucker straight. Folding is not outrageous at all. I don't know if it's the right play, but it's close. Problem being he probably has a handful of outs when you're ahead and you probably have very few when you're behind. If you call it's very tough to play the hand on a non-scary card because you'll probably have to go to the felt if you're that confident in your hand. As well he could bluff a scare card or just continue betting the hand that was beating you the whole time. If you push he likely folds what you're ahead of and call with what you're well behind. The more I talk it through I fold, but it's fairly close.

[xorbie]

He could definetely have AA/KK/QQ/JJ here. I've seen that sort of limp, super slow play but big bet on scary board type play from those hands. It could also be AT, JT or something like that.

The odds of it being someone who is super tricky I find to be somewhat low. I would just call here, and bet/raise a brick turn.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
The odds of it being someone who is super tricky I find to be somewhat low. I would just call here, and bet/raise a brick turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright well it looks like we are split between folding right then or calling and then raising a safe turn card.

So, I took the latter approach, I called, he bet another $5 on the turn of a blank and I raised to $15, he pushed and I called the little bit left and his T9 was very good.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Sorry it didn't work out. Honestly, thinking about it more and about your stack sizes and what the turn play will be like, I think that calling the flop is essentially committing to go to the felt. And I am starting to reconsider my thoughts about going to the felt against an overbettor with bottom two. They really isn't that much you can be beating. You aren't even that much ahead against a hand like JT or JJ. I think I have to eat crow and say that flop should have been a fold. Thanks for the interesting hand.

[just2ska]

try folding... or maybe... folding? Pot wasn't big enough for you to call that five bucks. If he's got a ten and he's open ended you're just about even money; i'd pick a better spot to win a big pot. Rough flop /images/graemlins/frown.gif

just2SKA!

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
God, some of the folds you people have been posting recently are just appalling. It doesn't help to say what hands Villain "could" have here. Sure, he could have QJ. Sure, he could get pocket aces every hand. Sure, he could flop the nuts every hand. You will lose a lot of money in NL thinking like this.

The fact that it's an unraised pot is really somewhat irrelevant, as Villain has you beat here nearly 0% of the time. Like another poster said, there's no rule against doubling up in an unraised pot.

Given the action, what could you put Villain on? Why would a set/straight bet like this? Does he want to push you out?

A fold here would be outrageous.

[/ QUOTE ]

nice post fox

i thought i made a semi successful campaign to purge that line (DB's famous saying about those limped pots) from this board... i guess i give myself too much credit

[zaxx19]

Wow, Im one of the guys leery of alot of the folds people make here...and Im also the guy who rails against weaktightness ad naseum...

That being said I dont like bottom 2 on this board at all.

Even if you are ahead you arent far ahead and you could EASILY be drawing to 4 outs or even worse.

[Allinlife]

I think this is an easy fold. Only hand you have good equity here is vs AT/KT. while you will very often be dominated by higher 2 pair/set/straight and at best, it will be coinflip vs pair+straight draw hands.

[BobboFitos]

Zaxx/allin

I understand wanting to fold. In all likelihood it probably isnt bad. Against an unknown, (well, you are presented with a dude overbetting the pot bigtime) at NL25 I really have a wide wide range of hands.

[ QUOTE ]
Only hand you have good equity here is vs AT/KT. while you will very often be dominated by higher 2 pair/set/straight and at best, it will be coinflip vs pair+straight draw hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could maybe see "tricky" party players making this bet with like J8. But also...

Any ten, any jack, any 7, any pair + j, any pair +7, then two pair, straight, set. or random bluff w/o anything. I really think the range is that wide. the reason i like calling more then raising is because if you raise you will shut off all the hands practically dead, or coinflip, or donate with little equity (vs top 2, for example) it may mean making an incorrect laydown on the turn, but i cant see a missed semibluff that doesn't hit their card contuing after you call such a big bet. so on a safe card it's an easy all in.

you know what, you guys may be right, but I would call here. with the intention of getting it in on most turns.