Chose your own adventure

[BobboFitos]

I think this was a good idea of David C's, I think it had been done before on mid/high board too, but here's a semi interesting hand: (haven't played much poker lately, so I'll post whatever I can get!)

Live 1/2. Game wasn't full, couldn't remember how many seats were open. Buy in is 100.

I have 170ish, UTG villain is relatively tight for a live game, (still would be moderately loose for a full online game) and he had doubled up so he has me covered. He makes it 10 preflop.

I have AK /images/graemlins/club.gif OTB folded to me, first decision:
1. Fold
2. Call
3. Repop (and how much)

Why?

No reads on blinds, but they each have barely more then buy in. (So assume 110)

[TheTimeIsUp]

I would raise it to about 30. AK(especially s00ted) is one of the top 3 hands, and should be played accordingly. It is likely that you have him dominated here, or he could have 99-QQ, and could be playing scared throughout the hand.

[xorbie]

I call here. You have position and a hand that could easily have him dominated. If you do flop an A, you can definetely get some bets out of him if he has AQ/AJ, and especially if he has QQ. Also, if you re-raise and he pushes, that just sucks.

[TheTimeIsUp]

[ QUOTE ]
I call here. You have position and a hand that could easily have him dominated. If you do flop an A, you can definetely get some bets out of him if he has AQ/AJ, and especially if he has QQ. Also, if you re-raise and he pushes, that just sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you aren't reraising because you fear a push, now thats just pathetic.

[soah]

Not nearly enough information here to make a decision. Need to know about his agression level and his intelligence level (like, does he understand position)?

[xorbie]

Is that what I said? Perhaps you should read the part of my post before that.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
Not nearly enough information here to make a decision. Need to know about his agression level and his intelligence level (like, does he understand position)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, you are right

No, he's a "tight" player but (i actually dont know, not enough to witness, but for the sake of this chose your own adventure, ill form a definitive read) seemed to open with the same hands from EP as LP and vica versa.

Aggression will auto bet flop heads up, he got the big stack with a big pair vs a fish. (but that is 50xbb stack...)

[TheWorstPlayer]

OK, because of the large opening raise (which is standard for live games) if you re-raise, you are essentially pot committed already. If he checks to you, you're going to have to bet strong no matter what basically and then it's just not going to be pretty unless he folds or unless you hit. I think against a 'tight' UTG raiser (even one who doesn't fully understand position) you should be more inclined to flat call, hope you hit, and go from there. If you don't hit, and he bets, then we have another question, but I would lean towards a fold, just can't count on ANY fold equity against KK-JJ and I'm not sure what % of the time he bets a missed AQ-AT. Does he even raise AJ/AT here?

[Tilt]

I would fold or reraise here, never call unlesss the stacks are deeper giving odds to draw to a flush or straight.

OTB I vote raise. It will not commit you, and will help define your opponents hand. Make it 30 to go.

[tbach24]

You said that he was somewhat loose/intelligent for you live game, so I would hesitate to re-pop as that pretty much defines your hand and you might have him fold AQ-AT. It will also be easier to extract value if you call and he plays his AQ-AT hard on a H high flop.
However, no raising does give both of you the chance to miss and he has right to the follow-up bet and unless you have a club draw attached to your overs, you really can't raise.

It's a pretty tough decision, but I feel that calling is more correct because he'll always follow up. And to those who said a re-raise PC's him, I disagree because a re-raise would only be about 25-30 and that's only like 1/6th of Bobbo's stack.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this was a good idea of David C's, I think it had been done before on mid/high board too, but here's a semi interesting hand: (haven't played much poker lately, so I'll post whatever I can get!)

Live 1/2. Game wasn't full, couldn't remember how many seats were open. Buy in is 100.

I have 170ish, UTG villain is relatively tight for a live game, (still would be moderately loose for a full online game) and he had doubled up so he has me covered. He makes it 10 preflop.

I have AK /images/graemlins/club.gif OTB folded to me, first decision:
1. Fold
2. Call
3. Repop (and how much)

Why?

No reads on blinds, but they each have barely more then buy in. (So assume 110)

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you like my idea so much (which was basically to get the maximum advice possible on all streets for that hand, to learn the most possible about a game that I am just starting to play), could you tell me what OTB means?

What's your position (if that isn't answered in "OTB")?

Man, there's so many ways to play this hand.

Smooth-calling: Let's you represent the set on a ragged flop and gets multiway action with AKs, which is good.

Minraising gives you information that can be very helpful. If he calls and a Q/J doesn't hit the flop, then when he bets at you, you have 15 outs rather than 9 to your flush or the top pair. This could also be for value as you may have him dominated.

I would minraise.

I would also like to know why you should never do that... I'm new to the forum but I know that this is a somewhat distasteful move. /images/graemlins/smile.gif


--Dave.

[Tilt]

On the other hand, if the flop comes KJQ, wouldnt you like some idea whether he has a hand like AT? etc., etc....there are some real drawbacks to not reraising to define his hand. On the other hand, if he calls a reraise, or pushes, you will have some pretty good ideas about what you are up against....thats worth more to me than the possibility I can trap a dominated hand.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you re-raise and he pushes, that just sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really, you recover $20 really quick in a $1/$2 live game.

I'm also not sure how this guy will play QQ on a scary flop (i.e. one containing an ace).

--Dave.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, because of the large opening raise (which is standard for live games)

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason you bet $10 rather than $8 is that $8 makes fish realize how little they know about the game.

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
I would also like to know why you should never do that... I'm new to the forum but I know that this is a somewhat distasteful move.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are four (often conflicting) purposes to any raise. 1) to get your opponent to fold, 2) to build the pot, 3) to define your opponents hand, 4) to deceive your opponent about what you are holding.

Since minraises have a tendency to price players in, they almost always fail to fulfill purposes 1 and 3. Because they are really only useful to fill purpose 2, they by definition fail purpose 4 -i.e you must be seeking to price players in when you do one, so it narrows your own hand considerably. Thats why they are usually such a "tell" of a monster hand or monster draw in a multiway pot.

Of course, at higher thinking levels of play they are useful as a deception technique.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Tilt
[ QUOTE ]
OTB I vote raise. It will not commit you, and will help define your opponents hand. Make it 30 to go.


[/ QUOTE ]

tbach
[ QUOTE ]
And to those who said a re-raise PC's him, I disagree because a re-raise would only be about 25-30 and that's only like 1/6th of Bobbo's stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Say you raise to 30 and he calls then checks the flop to you. What do you do on a hit? What do you do on a miss? If you bet the pot and he pushes, you now have 80 to call in a 260 pot so you are getting better than 3:1 on your money. Are you really going to drop that? You actually have proper odds to call there against a one pair hand as long as you are not dominated. I think re-raising pretty much DOES PC you.

[tbach24]

I'm pretty sure that I said call in my post and that that comment was just an anecdote.

Edit to say- You always followup your bet and if you make it 25 to go, then there's 50 in the pot and you can fire out 35-40 on the flop and you've only lost 65 of your 170 stack and by no means PC'ed to make a call to hit 6 outer (unless of course you have a club draw and it might somehow become +EV.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would also like to know why you should never do that... I'm new to the forum but I know that this is a somewhat distasteful move.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are four (often conflicting) purposes to any raise. 1) to get your opponent to fold, 2) to build the pot, 3) to define your opponents hand, 4) to deceive your opponent about what you are holding.

Since minraises have a tendency to price players in, they almost always fail to fulfill purposes 1 and 3. Because they are really only useful to fill purpose 2, they by definition fail purpose 4 -i.e you must be seeking to price players in when you do one, so it narrows your own hand considerably. Thats why they are usually such a "tell" of a monster hand or monster draw in a multiway pot.

Of course, at higher thinking levels of play they are useful as a deception technique.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool. In this situation I don't think you're trying to get your opponent to fold (he's got a hand and he won't do it). Likewise, I don't think you're looking to build a pot just yet, as he may have the best hand.

What this may do is get your other opponents to fold, as they may fear a re-raise. This would actually be a good thing. You want to be in a spot where you can make the hand very personal between you and your opponent, minimizing the environmental factors so that you know clearly what he's doing when he makes his bets.

The main problem that I have with minraising is that it defines my hand as not a high pocket, which I would ordinarily raise quite heavily. Because of that, a minraise from me is pretty transparent.

This will help define his hand, though, particularly if he hasn't seen you minraise in the past.

This is something I have to figure out, though, as well as how to adjust my standard pfr's for position and # of players in the pot already.

--Dave.

[Tilt]

I need a board to tell you what I would do. But I could comfortably muck at that point with a clubless board that has another high card on it.

Suppose you dont reraise and you hit the flop. You bet the pot and he comes over the top of you. What will you do? You will crap yourself, cause you will have NO IDEA if he has trips or AQ.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure that I said call in my post and that that comment was just an anecdote.

[/ QUOTE ]
You said to call. You also said that you would not be pot committed if you raised. And I'm not sure what you mean by 'anecdote'. I'm getting:

[ QUOTE ]

an·ec·dote
n.
A short account of an interesting or humorous incident.


[/ QUOTE ]
from Dictionary.com.

[tbach24]

I explained what I'd do above. Anecdote is something that you include at the end of something (usually a speech or story or something like that) that gives further information and/or adresses some other issue. I don't think it has to be funny, but if I'm truely that off in my thinking, it may be /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bkholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK, because of the large opening raise (which is standard for live games)

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason you bet $10 rather than $8 is that $8 makes fish realize how little they know about the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice tip, I have yet to play no limit live. Thanks.

[TheWorstPlayer]

OK, well even using your definition of anecdote. I disagree with your anecdote. I think what you said is wrong. You said that you are not PCed if you re-raise and I think you are, because you are going to end up betting the pot on the flop, or at least close to it, and then you will have odds to call his push because you might be ahead and if you aren't, he might have QQ-TT for which it would be correct to call.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK, because of the large opening raise (which is standard for live games)

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason you bet $10 rather than $8 is that $8 makes fish realize how little they know about the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice tip, I have yet to play no limit live. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's also because it looks odd. If you open for 3 whites and 1 red, it will attract attention. Just throw in a pair of reds. If you aer in LP and there's a bunch of limpers, I imagine adding in another red would be good.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK, because of the large opening raise (which is standard for live games)

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason you bet $10 rather than $8 is that $8 makes fish realize how little they know about the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice tip, I have yet to play no limit live. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's also because it looks odd. If you open for 3 whites and 1 red, it will attract attention. Just throw in a pair of reds. If you aer in LP and there's a bunch of limpers, I imagine adding in another red would be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that. That's one of my weaknesses.

[BobboFitos]

Im pleasantly surprised this got so many responses! It seems some of you like reraising, and the ideal number is 30, (or minraise) and others call. The stacks are around ~85bbs; although tight, tight for a live game in a slightly shorthanded situation I definately think their hand range is a few pairs, some suited aces, and a bunch of ace big. Maybe slightly tighter becuse this guy would limp some of those.

My default is to almost always call here, just interested if anyone could change my mind, also.

And yes, if this guy pushed on me, if I bumped to 30, it's a very easy fold. I could expect the pairs to call my reraise, MAYBE AQ, and AK AA KK QQ to push on me. Maybe he would just call with those and not put in a 3rd raise, but I've never tested him.

There are a few situations when I prefer to reraise here;
1. If stacks are larger. This allows me to seize initiative, when I make a continuation bet there will be more room to play the turn, and also allows me to rep a big pair easier, so if he thinks he has implied odds, I win the pot everytime he doesnt set (whether or not I pair) and I dont get stacked
2. If the player is a much looser raiser. So often that I definately have the best hand, and I have a nice preflop overlay that it can't hurt
3. A player (or both!) who I feel is very tricky or over aggressive (and will make taking the free pots when checked to me tough) comes in closing the action. This isn't a solid reason, but something to consider - who is in the blinds.

Just to reiterate, neither blind was good, this guy was semitight, and I didn't think stacks were big enough. So I called.

Flop: (31$)
K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB led in 10. No real concept of bets in relation to the pot. (Typical of live play, some players just have a "standard flop bet." kinda weird...) PFR calls.

Whats my move? Keep in mind BB has about 90 after his bet, PFR has me covered, I hav 160, pot is ~50 to me with 10 to call.

1. Fold
2. Call
3. Raise Small (30 to 40 total, so half pot or less)
4. Raise Mid (45 to 60 total, a little less than full pot)
5. Raise Big (Push!)

[Tilt]

Its a definite raise. Calling that small bet is just going to keep this pot small in a situation where you feel good you are ahead.

I am torn as to how much at this point. Any raise commits you to the extent of his stack. If you try and set him in, however, he will fold hands you beat and calls with a set. I would raise it to 50 and look to get him in on the turn no matter what falls.

[mythrilfox]

I think re-raising preflop is terrible. Given his range of hands now and his range of hands that will call the re-raise, it's just not any good at all. The only hand you dominate at this point is AQ and it probably folds to a re-raise.

Even though he doesn't have much conception of pot size, surely you can interpret his flop bet to a certain extent? How much does he bet with monsters, how much does he bet with AQ on this board?

You may be exaggerating his tightness, but if he is indeed as tight as you say, you're hoping for a split at best. You're getting no more out of AQ or JJ or anything else you beat. I think if he is truly that tight a serious case can be made for calling here and folding to a turn bet.

edit: well I re-read the initial post and had this conception of uber-tightness for some reason. Sounds like he's not as tight as I thought when I wrote this, but I still think you're hard-pressed to make money off hands you beat. I would flat-call here, and if he really has no conception of pot size you might be in for a pleasantly cheap showdown. If he bets big on the turn I'd look into his soul and consider throwing it away.

[BobboFitos]

Oops, just noticed maybe I didn't make it clear the BB called pre flop, and he was the one who led in 10. I didn't think he was good but I had no real read.

and PFR is not uber tight

[TheWorstPlayer]

That small bet could easily be a flush draw. And the fact that PFR just called it means weakness for sure. So I say raise it to $60. Enough so that BB is making a bad call, even if he expects PFR to come along. And I think PFR could easily call it with his AQ. These guys don't seem that good. Or maybe he puts YOU on a semi-bluff. Who knows.

[mythrilfox]

Oh, I didn't even notice BB was in the hand. That makes it a bit easier. I'd raise like $50 or so. If BB plays back at you, so be it. If PFR plays back, I'd drop it.

[BK_]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, because of the large opening raise (which is standard for live games) if you re-raise, you are essentially pot committed already. If he checks to you, you're going to have to bet strong no matter what basically and then it's just not going to be pretty unless he folds or unless you hit. I think against a 'tight' UTG raiser (even one who doesn't fully understand position) you should be more inclined to flat call, hope you hit, and go from there. If you don't hit, and he bets, then we have another question, but I would lean towards a fold, just can't count on ANY fold equity against KK-JJ and I'm not sure what % of the time he bets a missed AQ-AT. Does he even raise AJ/AT here?

[/ QUOTE ]

yep. plus you dont want to fold out AJ/AQ/KQ from the tight player. these are the 2 hands you need to keep in, as they are the hands you get paid off most by. easy flat call here

[BK_]

deleted

[BobboFitos]

yeah, pretty clear flop raise, i realized this thread kinda sucks, as the hand isn't tough. meh.

i raised to 45, (maybe should've raised more) BB called. PFR folded.

the turn came 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I noticed he sorta jerked up. I am not (yet) a good phsyicalreader at all though. He pushed. So 55 into a pot of 130 or so. (well, 185 w/ his push..) anyone fold? I called. results, if anyone interested,tomorrow morning

[mason55]

KQ - 2 pair????

Although the jerking up from the 4/images/graemlins/club.gif is interesting.

[TheWorstPlayer]

If he has K4, the river had better have been a 5. And no, no one is folding there.

[BobboFitos]

I called, I thinkthat is mandatory.

He flipped over 54 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif the river blanked i won

going to let this die now

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]

I have AK


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (31$)
KQ5


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

the turn came 4


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He flipped over 54 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif the river blanked i won


[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
He flipped over 54 the river blanked i won





[/ QUOTE ]

oops

[TrailofTears]

Good lord. I just got to reading this entire thread, and now I get to Bobbo's finale, and it makes no sense! I need to play more live games if I can win with the worse hand. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

-Trail

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
Good lord. I just got to reading this entire thread, and now I get to Bobbo's finale, and it makes no sense! I need to play more live games if I can win with the worse hand. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

-Trail

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, live is fun like that (he won the hand)