Got read the riot act for this one 200NL 3/5

[fimbulwinter]

blinds 3/5
MP1 is tight and weak, not dangerous at all
MP3 flat out sucks

preflop:
MP1 (~600) raises to 15, MP2 (~400) calls, I call (700) with A4/images/graemlins/heart.gif on CO, blinds fold.

flop (50): 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif7/images/graemlins/heart.gifT/images/graemlins/club.gif
MP1 bets 25, MP3 calls, I make it $90, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

turn (255): 5/images/graemlins/club.gif
check, check

river (255): 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
check, I bet 300, he calls

move obviously stolen from limit poker; acceptable or not?

fim

[TheWorstPlayer]

Ni han, sir. He's probably raising AK-AT/AA-TT, possibly a bit wider, right? You are ahead of a large portion of that hand range on the flop so raise it up (and that flop bet was WEAK). Once MP3 calls your raise, you have to assume he has at least TPTK so you check behind on the turn. Then you suck out like the luckbox that you are and value bet his two pair or top pair. Nicely played all around. The only debate is probably going to be around the preflop call, but with position, a weak raiser, and deep stacks, I think it is 100% fine.

[soah]

MP3's play really sucks.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Yes. This hand shows why MP3 has to raise or fold on the flop. Didn't Ray Zee have some great line to Bruiser about the fastest way to go broke being betting a little and calling a lot? Nicely done, MP3.

[fimbulwinter]

with the exception of the river i can see a good player playing a set like this.

and yes, his play did really, really suck. The posthand analysis was gold.

fim

[BobboFitos]

Im not as thrilled with this as the others are

If you read PFR's bet as weak, why raise it up? Better hands are not folding the flop and you dont need to punish a 3 out draw.

If you say MP3 is sucky, I take it the sucky type who calls and checks alot more then raising and folding. So why raise? If he has a top pair esque hand (alot more likely on this board given only 56 or 89 draws there) you are behind and he will call you.

If you flatcall PFR might freeze up on turn (actually, most would anyways, not fire 2nd barrell into TWO people) and MP3 is sucky so will check (? This is my leap of faith) if MP3 would bet here, and more than 65 then I lik your raise, but anyways you coud still see the river for the initial 25.

Also, with 3 flush / bottom pair taking a card ending action at 4-1 seems fine, especially considering depth of stacks.

You asked though
[ QUOTE ]
move obviously stolen from limit poker; acceptable or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

and it is, but I dont know if raising the flop is better then calling. But I think it's more pos EV then folding =)

edit - just noticed 68 for the double belly buster too.unlikely though. but still should mention it.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
with the exception of the river i can see a good player playing a set like this.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't a good player bet the turn with a set? With his stack, he should have no problem getting it all in on the river by betting $150/$150 or $100/$200. It's unlikely you are just going to fold the turn after raising the flop, right? And you could have been raising a draw that he should protect himself against on the turn, in any case. No?

[fimbulwinter]

what about the size of the flop raise? my standard 3x would be $75 which felt too callable, and PSR would be (i think) $150 which felt like overkill. maybe 100-125 in the future or no?

fim

[BobboFitos]

another thing I wanted to add:

actually, given your read of PFR I *CAN* see him folding better hands to the flop raise, but my main concern is nothim sticking it, it's that MP3 (guy in middle) will have made hand much more often then draw, in which case it pays to draw vs him and not isolate a (worse) made hand vs calling station (which is how I read him as "weak")

if that is incorrect the situation changes

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
what about the size of the flop raise? my standard 3x would be $75 which felt too callable, and PSR would be (i think) $150 which felt like overkill. maybe 100-125 in the future or no?

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you trying to accomplish?

In your post you said it's borrowed from limit, so I take it you want a free card. Raise the smallest amount possible to accomplish this. So 75.

If it's to knock weak tighty out of the pot, more is better (maybe, depends on what level thinker he is) so 125 seems better.

If you average those two you get 100, so there :P

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
with the exception of the river i can see a good player playing a set like this.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't a good player bet the turn with a set? With his stack, he should have no problem getting it all in on the river by betting $150/$150 or $100/$200. It's unlikely you are just going to fold the turn after raising the flop, right? And you could have been raising a draw that he should protect himself against on the turn, in any case. No?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess i was seeing his turn action as a good player's whiffed C/R A-I against an overpair or TPGK. Although you are right, there are a lot of straight draws out there, so a good player could also bet out. i guess given the flop betting i don't see a straight draw raising hard here; he's getting 4:1 on his money as it is calling the $25.

Not that such a pattern is the best way to play a set there, just that it would look like one...

fim

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
Im not as thrilled with this as the others are

If you read PFR's bet as weak, why raise it up? Better hands are not folding the flop and you dont need to punish a 3 out draw.

If you say MP3 is sucky, I take it the sucky type who calls and checks alot more then raising and folding. So why raise? If he has a top pair esque hand (alot more likely on this board given only 56 or 89 draws there) you are behind and he will call you.

If you flatcall PFR might freeze up on turn (actually, most would anyways, not fire 2nd barrell into TWO people) and MP3 is sucky so will check (? This is my leap of faith) if MP3 would bet here, and more than 65 then I lik your raise, but anyways you coud still see the river for the initial 25.

Also, with 3 flush / bottom pair taking a card ending action at 4-1 seems fine, especially considering depth of stacks.

You asked though
[ QUOTE ]
move obviously stolen from limit poker; acceptable or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

and it is, but I dont know if raising the flop is better then calling. But I think it's more pos EV then folding =)

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess i thought for sure that i had MP1 beat (but that he was obviously drawing live) and that MP3 had either a draw or a crappy part of the board, middle PP or something he thought was better than MP1 but surely that couldn't handle a raise.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]

What are you trying to accomplish?


[/ QUOTE ]

good question. fold out MP1's 3 or 6 outer and MP's middle pair, underpair, TPBK (PSR probably won't even do that though) or charge his SD.

fim

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What are you trying to accomplish?


[/ QUOTE ]

good question. fold out MP1's 3 or 6 outer and MP's middle pair, underpair, TPBK (PSR probably won't even do that though) or charge his SD.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you need to raise bigger. I think 110 or so, in the moment though I'm not sure what I would do.

Play of turn shoudl go check-check if he calls, unless you improve, in which case I think it's better to stick it in.

if river blank and he checks also easy check back as you'd beat any non bluffed missed draw and if he called a big flop raise with TPBK or underpair or something more power to him sniffing it out, you wont get him to fold the river once you check the turn

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What are you trying to accomplish?


[/ QUOTE ]

good question. fold out MP1's 3 or 6 outer and MP's middle pair, underpair, TPBK (PSR probably won't even do that though) or charge his SD.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you need to raise bigger. I think 110 or so, in the moment though I'm not sure what I would do.

Play of turn shoudl go check-check if he calls, unless you improve, in which case I think it's better to stick it in.

if river blank and he checks also easy check back as you'd beat any non bluffed missed draw and if he called a big flop raise with TPBK or underpair or something more power to him sniffing it out, you wont get him to fold the river once you check the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

I think i agree, especially because it makes the river easier by eliminating the overbet when i do suck out.

fim

[BobboFitos]

So, prolly premature for results, but did he make a "tough" callwith JT or something? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[iceman5]

I think is a bad play in the long run and it worked because you got lucky and hes weak tight.

Now, maybe its ok against a weak tight player, but in the long run calling $15 with A4s is going to cost you money, as is raising that flop.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
I think is a bad play in the long run and it worked because you got lucky and hes weak tight.

Now, maybe its ok against a weak tight player, but in the long run calling $15 with A4s is going to cost you money, as is raising that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree the flop raise is iffy, but you dislike the preflop call? /images/graemlins/confused.gif PFR has 120bbs and raises 3/120, or 2.5%. Dead money in the middle also has 80bbs but he just contributes to your overlay. Add position and a good read on these players, but this seems like a very standard call.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
I think is a bad play in the long run and it worked because you got lucky and hes weak tight.

Now, maybe its ok against a weak tight player, but in the long run calling $15 with A4s is going to cost you money, as is raising that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

not even close to right.

fim

[fimbulwinter]

He "put me on AT" and called with QQ (!) real quick.

to those of you who question the preflop call, think about it this way: I'm calling 3.75% of the smallest stack in the hand in a multiway pot and i'll have position. i'm calling about 3% of the average stack here. in the 100 game, the blinds are 2/3 with a $100 buyin. you're telling me you wouldn't limp there behind two others with Axs? it's basically the same amount of your stack and your opponents's hands are not as well defined.

to those who don't like the raise: I feel that raising to 90 there is plus EV in and of itself. remember, i'm popping to 90 to win 100, so if i was drawing stone cold dead (which i'm obviously not) i need a fold here less than half the time to make the bet profitable in a vacuum. not to mention the "I might suckout" aspect of the semibluff. What i've been doing lately is expanding the range of hands with which i semibluff according to the fold equity and pot equity of my hand. obviously a 5 out draw requires big fold equity to put in a raise; this situation gets folded more than 50% of the time in my experience, hence the previous statement.

the real things i was looking for input on were what kind of hand you all saw MP3 holding once he calls (I didn't think he'd have a TPTK or big pair kind of hand, but you guys correctly set me straight there), the viability of continuing with the semibluff on the turn (like if i could blow him off a draw or middle pair kind of hand there) and the size of the flop raise (which i also messed up) and river bet.

fim

[Trainwreck]

$300 on river? Only caller should be one crushing you, so it's bad.

So many errors here (not just yours), you're very fortunate you dragged this one, which of course you did based on the topic.

>TW<