Risky play, anybody give their take on it?

[aK13]

No reads on anybody, since I’m multi-tabling cryptos without PokerTracker.

Preflop: Hero has 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
1 fold, Villain calls, Hero calls, 5 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif
SB checks, BB checks, Villain bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, Villain calls.

I figure I’m ahead or way behind here, so I try to narrow the field HU, and maybe pick up the pot without a showdown. I also thought it would give me a cheaper showdown in case I was behind.

Turn: Q /images/graemlins/club.gif
Villain checks, Hero checks.

Now I pick up a flush draw, I'll take a free card.

River: 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Villain bets, Hero calls.

Damn, pretty sure I’m beat here, but the only card I’m losing to is a Q, so I guess I have to call.

Should I be trying this play every once in a while? I'm hoping the answer is yes, but I probably screwed up somewhere, so comments/suggestions/flames are welcome.

[UncleSalty]

Looks pretty good. I think I'd bet the turn and fold to a raise. You get some good information and it costs you the same as the way you played it.

[tiltaholic]

i think you gotta bet that turn and call a raise (flush draw).

personally, i've taken to raising preflop after one limper, but i don't know how profitable it will turn out...

[GoHoosiers]

I'd probably bet the turn. If he's got a Q, this is where he'd raise. I also think your flop raise with two /images/graemlins/club.gifs may have bought you some some fold equity when the scary turn club falls.

Rich

[slickterp]

i don't think he has the Q, but he might have had the flush. i'd bet/fold the turn.

[slickterp]

i also don't like putting too much stock in the flush draw, he could easily be holding any of the 5 clubs that beat you.

[joeski19]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks pretty good. I think I'd bet the turn and fold to a raise. You get some good information and it costs you the same as the way you played it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[aK13]

To be honest, it didn't really occur to me that I might be drawing (virtually) dead already to a bigger flush.

I like the idea of leading out on the turn, and folding to a raise, although if he smooth calls, do I bet on the river if he checks?

[elindauer]

Your flop logic is off. You're not "way ahead or way behind". You're slightly ahead or way behind. Not to mention that if you were in fact way ahead or way behind, calling would be a much better choice than raising.

Since you are only slightly ahead or way behind, and the pot is only 4SB, you should fold. If you are going to play, you should raise and limit the field, as you did, for the wrong reasons.

On the turn, well, tough call. The queen hitting makes it more likely you were ahead on the flop, but the club makes it less likely you are ahead now. I think you're better off betting and trying to take advantage of the passive nature of your typical microlimit player who may only call with a Q, fearing clubs. Also, it would be a disaster to give a free card to, say A6 / overcards / etc when a bet might win the pot.

If you get check-raised, well, go back and fold the flop.


Good luck.
Eric

[scotty34]

Now that is where it gets a little tricky. If the flush card comes, I am pretty certain he will bet it (even though he doesn't know Clarkmeister's theorem). In this case I would probably call. If the flush card comes, and he checks, I think it's safe to bet this river. If no flush card comes I would check behind.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks pretty good. I think I'd bet the turn and fold to a raise. You get some good information and it costs you the same as the way you played it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No taking the free card on the turn is the right play. If your club hits you probably this win hand with your flush as villian probably has Q, the club is already on the board and they would have raised with any suited high card. If the draw wasn't there, a raise here would be a good play.

On the river with a small pot it's a break even call in my estimation. Without reads on villian I call. If I had any kind of solid read I'd probably drop this hand.

[elindauer]

If he just calls your turn bet, bet the river too, no matter what hits. He's calling down with any pair and maybe even ace high. Give him a chance to pay you off.

In microlimit games, understanding when to value bet the river is very important. Hell, the same is true in the party 15.

Good luck.
Eric

[UncleSalty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Looks pretty good. I think I'd bet the turn and fold to a raise. You get some good information and it costs you the same as the way you played it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No taking the free card on the turn is the right play. If your club hits you probably this win hand with your flush as villian probably has Q, the club is already on the board and they would have raised with any suited high card

[/ QUOTE ]

I must respectfully disagree. The Q dropping on the turn reduces the chances villain is holding a Q, and increases the chance that we are ahead right now. We are more worried about the bigger flush possibility at this point, and I want to find out where we stand.

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
Your flop logic is off. You're not "way ahead or way behind". You're slightly ahead or way behind. Not to mention that if you were in fact way ahead or way behind, calling would be a much better choice than raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said I'm "ahead, or way behind", not way ahead, so if I'm ahead, my hand is vulnerable, which is the reason why I wanted to try to get people out of this pot.

I also think that the Q falling reduces the chance that Villain has a Q, but for some reason, I kept focusing on villain holding a Q instead of hitting a flush.

Villain checked turn, if he raises, he probably has the flush so I fold, but if he calls, he will probably think I have a flush? So in this case, he'd probably check the river, and I check behind?

Even though it doesn't matter - results in white:
<font color="white"> Villain flips Ks Qh. </font>

[DeuceKicker]

[ QUOTE ]
if I'm ahead, my hand is vulnerable, which is the reason why I wanted to try to get people out of this pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're ahead, what are you ahead of? With no read I don't see how you can credit villain with enough aggressiveness to be betting anything but top pair (or better, in which case you're way behind) or a flush draw. So you're either raising to try to steal the pot from his Qx or because you think you're ahead of his flush draw.

[ QUOTE ]
I also think that the Q falling reduces the chance that Villain has a Q, but for some reason, I kept focusing on villain holding a Q instead of hitting a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
At this point, when the turn brings the worst possible card for you, you should be hoping he has a Qx. But now you have to hope he's extremely weak and will fold trips to a 3-flush... not likely

[ QUOTE ]
Villain checked turn, if he raises, he probably has the flush so I fold, but if he calls, he will probably think I have a flush? So in this case, he'd probably check the river, and I check behind?

[/ QUOTE ]
This reasoning seems pretty sound, tactically, but I think you're off strategically. (In fact, it doesn't look like you had a specific strategy at all.) There's no way in hell you have the best hand on the turn, and an 8-high flush draw on a paired board is a money sink. So you have two choices; 1) Try to steal the pot, or; 2) Be done with it.

If you want to steal the pot I think you're in trouble. Villain most likely has a decent/solid hand--trips, a flush, or a boat--that he's going to call down. Your flop raise was representing one of two things A) "I have a made hand that can beat your Queen," or; B) "I have a flush draw." If you're going to try for a steal, you need to decide ahead of time to bet the turn on any card except the Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (maybe any /images/graemlins/club.gif that pairs the board). BTW, given your position when you raised the flop, a thinking opponent won't give you a ton of credit for a flush draw, but that's neither here nor there.

If you're done with it after that crappy turn card then checking behind on the turn is fine, but you should have folded the river. (MajorKong/Ed Miller/NPA's advice to call rivers for one bet doesn't apply here.) What did you think you could beat? Villain would have to have bet the flop with bottom two or a PP&lt;8, in which case the likelihood of him betting the river is small.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
No reads on anybody, since I’m multi-tabling cryptos without PokerTracker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read your hand but what's up with this? I do this all the time no problem...