AK in a monster pot... played too passively?

[Malachii]

I'm posting this because I hate how passively I played this hand. At the same time, I was getting great pot odds and I thought folding would be an error. Did I play too weakly?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (18.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (12.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (18.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero folds, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 22.25 BB

[KaiShin]

I think this is OK. There's no real place to get aggressive here. Leading the flop into this giant field is ridiculous. Check-raising the flop accomplishes nothing, and ditto for the turn.

[toss]

You should really cap this PF. I'd bet out on the flop and hope it gets raised.

[istewart]

Table selection: A+.

[KaiShin]

[ QUOTE ]
You should really cap this PF. I'd bet out on the flop and hope it gets raised.

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting line. I generally avoid capping with AK but LRR's could have anything these days. I've seen a LRR with Q3s once.

What's the logic for betting this flop? Hope that UTG raises and cleans up outs for you? MP3 is too far away to do that for you.

[KaiShin]

[ QUOTE ]
Table selection: A+.

[/ QUOTE ]
Lol. Yeah no kidding.

PS I liked your old avatar better /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[TomBrooks]

Methinks you played it g00t.

I have two questions:

Would it have been g00t to raise preflop and force the field to face two, hoping to knock anyone out although they had put two bets in already, or

...was it good to call the 3-bet hoping MP3 would start the flop betting so you could reraise him if you wanted to, and...

Would you want to raise him on this flop if he had been the first to bet? You only have overcards, but maybe if you knock some people out top pair would be more likely to hold up it hit.

[tomcain]

Wow. I forgot how loose .5/1 is /images/graemlins/smile.gif. I never see this kind of action at 1/2 or 2/4.

I probably would fold the flop.

Tom

[aK13]

Similar topic in another thread. Here's my response.

I would call the flop, and fold turn UI. Just personally, I tend to go too far with overs and end up losing a BB or two chasing too much, so I've tried to change up my play and tighten up/let go of overs in situations like this.

If you manage to hit your over, I think you should still play conservatively. With so many people in the pot, I think there is a pretty decent chance you're behind something like raggy 2 pair or reverse dominated. I don't think raising if you hit an over and SB bets will do anything but hurt you -- those who are ahead will call and those who are behind will fold.

[keikiwai]

Preflop seems good.

Post flop you put in 2.5 BBs.

How about rasing the flop? This will cost you 1 BB (2SB), and could get many people to fold even at this table. Then if you hit the turn, you're in a better position. If you miss the turn you fold.

This scenario: post flop you put in 1BB not 2.5BB. Or you put in more BBs but have a much better chance of winning when if you hit the turn.

Even if you are reraised on the flop and check that you only put in 3SB= 1.5 BB. Then if you miss the turn you fold.

I think this is why raising the flop and folding the turn unimproved is better. You put less money in, and if you hit, you have less opponents against what amounts as a dangerous flopd for you almost no matter what.

[DoctorDrew]

Here's my problem with your line, but sometimes you can't help what happens. In a 6 player field, how much stock can you put in your A being good?

Since the bet came from our immediate right PF, I expect you wanted MP3 to bet so you could raise and face the field with 2 bets. That got shot to hell, so I call the flop as I only have a few outs, hoping really for a K and check/fold UI on the turn as I can't even give my self credit for 3 good outs here. Of course you picked up the flush draw so call again. Then fold, I know its a big pot, but its not HU and all you can beat is a bluff.

Its OK, but it might have played differently with a PF cap.

[keikiwai]

dang! I missed the backdoor flush draw. I don't think preflop raiser has a boat, and once turn is a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif you are getting superb odds. Only a boatd which has low probability given the low cards on board or the A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif will beat you if river is a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif..... and it's &gt;50% that A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif wasn't even dealt. I still think the flop raise is the way to go, then when the diamond falls on the turn raise the turn to pump your flush draw.

[Malachii]

The only person I could've knocked out with a raise on the flop was UTG+1. It didn't seem worth it, although if he'd ended up taking the pot away from me I would've been mad =D. On the turn, the diamond is the main reason I continued. I might've called anyway since the pot was huge, although I find that I sometimes chase too often with AK.

Thanks for the comments everyone /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Malachii]

You're right, capping probably would have been better since it would've knocked out a lot of the field. I'm not sure why MP3 decided to reraise me, since he originally limped in late position. The only rational reason I can think of was that he had a medium pocket pair that he wanted to play heads up.

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]
Similar topic in another thread. Here's my response.

I would call the flop, and fold turn UI. Just personally, I tend to go too far with overs and end up losing a BB or two chasing too much, so I've tried to change up my play and tighten up/let go of overs in situations like this.

If you manage to hit your over, I think you should still play conservatively. With so many people in the pot, I think there is a pretty decent chance you're behind something like raggy 2 pair or reverse dominated. I don't think raising if you hit an over and SB bets will do anything but hurt you -- those who are ahead will call and those who are behind will fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're getting 16:1 on the turn, and drawing to the second-nut flush with two overcards. Even if you discounted all outs by 50% thats still 4.5 outs for the flush and 1.5 outs for the overcards (one half of the standard 3 outs).

This is a clear call. If you were drawing to the nut flush you could probably even raise.

'Chasing' a hand to the river is OK if the pot odds justify it. You can be correct to call all the way to the river with 72o if the pot is big enough.

[turaho]

I've been noticing players limp-reraising preflop a lot lately. The only time I resepect it is when it comes from UTG. There's a section in SSH that talks about this... the only possible reason you'd limp-reraise is if you have a premium hand in EP and want to get some action on a tight table. (And even then I'd never do it. I'd rather get the value out of my hands preflop: better to play AA against 3 coldcallers than 7 limpers)

At this loose table, where four guys already limping in before him, he'd have no reason not to raise if he had nice cards. So when it gets back to him, his LRR tells me "I don't know what the hell I'm doing and I'm pissed that you raised."

Easy reraise for me, because I have to believe that I probably still have the best hand and hopefully one or two other players will drop out preflop. Then I lead the flop and take it from there.