The lost art of folding overpairs...

[blackaces13]

Absolute Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif. UTG posts a blind of $1.
UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, UTG (poster) checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO folds, SB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero folds, MP2 calls.

What's the verdict?

[NAU_Player]

the converter messed up the flop play of you and MP2

[jaxUp]

you da man...nh

[FishHooks]

Peronally i think a raise freflop is much better than calling especially in MP1

[SoftcoreRevolt]

Try not to bet and fold on the same street. Especially when he might just have that 8. I'd probably fold the river unimproved, but you really don't want to give people the impression you'll fold like that.

Raise with 99 preflop.

[luckyplayer]

Why did you fold? Confident sb had the flush or trips by his raise? Confident UTG+1 did by his cold call?

[jaxUp]

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Try not to bet and fold on the same street.


[/ QUOTE ]

[censored] that, I don't care if people want to take shots at me in the future. I will loosen up my calls a bit for the next few orbits if necessary... This is a classic, sweet-ass laydown.

edit: and yeah, I raise pf.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
Try not to bet and fold on the same street.

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This isn't a good rule.

The players in the hand don't know that you're folding an overpair here, and calling the turn and folding the river unimproved is bad, because you're wasting a bet on the turn. If you feel you're behind and the pot is not large enough to call, then fold. Don't call for image - only you know what you're folding. If you think people are starting to take shots at you, by all means call down, but always calling a raise if you bet a street is a massive leak.

As far as this hand goes, I raise preflop, bet flop, and I would bet/fold that turn against most players.

[TomBrooks]

PREFLOP - You called. Raise unless it's a tight table, especially since UTG threw some post up money in there out of position.

FLOP - You bet. I would like to check this flop because your overpair 9s are vulnerable to five different overcards and opponents on a flush draw. You do not have a big equity margin in the pot with two cards to come. If the turn is not an overcard or a club, your high pair equity will go way up and any bets that go into the pot at that point will be to your great advantage.

On the other hand, I get nervous when there is a two suited flop and there are a lot of opponents still in. You have six remaining. Since the pot is pretty small, I think you can at least get one club holders to fold, so I am going to override the above point and bet. This may be a mistake however. I would like to hear comments from others more erudite than I about this.

TURN - Scare card. Third to a suit, but an undercard. This is tricky. I think I bet to charge those with one club and still on the draw. If I get reraised I call unlike your fold. I would fold to a 3bet.

Notice how raising pre-flop might have helped you in this hand. You might have gotten T /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif and similar suited club hands to fold.

Edit: corrected "flop" to "pre-flop", last para.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
Notice how raising the flop might have helped you in this hand. You might have gotten T /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif and similar suited club hands to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you mean raising preflop, but this is still results oriented. You want T7s to coldcall your raise preflop when you have 99.

[waynethetrain]

I agree with everyone else about raising pre flop.

I think this is a close decision. There are 10BBs in the pot when it gets back to you with another bet from MP2 likely. So you need a little over 10% for it to be a decent call.

You have approximately a 4% chance of hitting trips on the river, but one of those, the 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif will probably be a killer. You don't even know if trips would win given that the flush could already be out there.

It really comes down to your estimate of the probability you are ahead at this point because the 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif doesn't add much to your win probability. (it will lose sometimes to the already made flush)

SB could be betting a pair of 8s as top pair because if he had two /images/graemlins/club.gif he probably would have raised the flop for value against this many opponenets. UTG+1 could be on the flush draw. Maybe MP2 has a small pocket pair?

I think I call, but not with much confidence.

Under game conditions (with less time to think) I think I would have folded.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Miles sed: You want T7s to coldcall your raise preflop when you have 99.

[/ QUOTE ]
99 does well two ways - against one or two opponents where it may hold up unimproved or in a multi-way pot when you flop a set. If someone has already limped in front of me, I will just call to encourage others to join the pot. But if no one has limped in yet as in this case, I am inclined to raise to try to limit the field and hope this hand will hold up as a top pair.

In this hand, it turns out there are a lot of hands you would have like to have folded. In addition to any two unconnected and/or low clubs, there is A4 and 54s-43s. A3 and A5 could have ruined your hand also with a 5 or 3 on the river.

[blackaces13]

These HHs I get from Absolute are the WORST. I bet the flop in this one, it doesn't show up in the hand. Also, you can see that a bunch of players actions are missing both preflop and after, the BB for instance, and the pot sizes are all screwed because of it.

I'm not able to fix it manually (time expired on the edit)so suffice to say that I lead the flop and the pot was bigger than it says.

[blackaces13]

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Peronally i think a raise freflop is much better than calling especially in MP1

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OK, why? I think its pretty close either way. The word "much" is pushing it IMHO.

[blackaces13]

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Why did you fold? Confident sb had the flush or trips by his raise?

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Um, yeah basically.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]

99 does well two ways - against one or two opponents where it may hold up unimproved or in a multi-way pot when you flop a set. If someone has already limped in front of me, I will just call to encourage others to join the pot. But if no one has limped in yet as in this case, I am inclined to raise to try to limit the field and hope this hand will hold up as a top pair.

In this hand, it turns out there are a lot of hands you would have like to have folded. In addition to any two unconnected and/or low clubs, there is A4 and 54s-43s. A3 and A5 could have ruined your hand also with a 5 or 3 on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Dude, you're being results oriented. You WANT A4, A3, A2, 54, 65, etc. to call you preflop when you have 99. Just because the flop came out and improved those hands doesn't mean you don't want them calling you every time you raise 99 preflop.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FishHooks quiped: ...i think a raise preflop is much better than calling, especially in MP1

[/ QUOTE ]Brocktoon challenged: OK, why? I think its pretty close either way.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll take a stab at that one. I agree you could have gone either way. But with 7 seeing the flop, your high pair value is usually very vulnerable. In this case, you got all undercards on every street, but you got three clubs. Because you were pretty good, but not definately good, you are now in a quandry over what to do. I think middle pairs can be difficult to play because they can wind up in these marginal situations. With a lot of opponents, you almost have to make a set or muck 'em.

[blackaces13]

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Raise unless it's a tight table, especially since UTG threw some post up money in there out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again this HH is totally wacko. There was no UTG post in this hand. The sb sat out so the blinds were positioned 1 seat more to the left of the button than usual. No one posted UTG.

Also, aside from this freakish hand the table was fairly tight, something like 30% flops seen.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
FLOP - You bet. I would like to check this flop because your overpair 9s are vulnerable to five different overcards and opponents on a flush draw. You do not have a big equity margin in the pot with two cards to come. If the turn is not an overcard or a club, your high pair equity will go way up and any bets that go into the pot at that point will be to your great advantage.

On the other hand, I get nervous when there is a two suited flop and there are a lot of opponents still in. You have six remaining. Since the pot is pretty small, I think you can at least get one club holders to fold, so I am going to override the above point and bet. This may be a mistake however. I would like to hear comments from others more erudite than I about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll comment on this. I think checking the flop is a terrible idea. I think you are referring to a similar hand in SSH where Ed is talking about a vulnerable TT hand. But in that case someone had already bet, and there were callers, so raising wasn't going to be marginally +EV. In that case, you were hoping that someone would bet the turn again, and you could raise with a bigger equity edge (if the turn wasn't too scary). But in this hand, who do you expect to bet out the turn that you will be ahead of? Giving a free card is bad, and you're also missing value by betting the flop against players who will make brutal flop calls. Betting doesn't give protect against a flush draw, but it protects against many other hands, and betting has value most of the time too.

[blackaces13]

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You have approximately a 4% chance of hitting trips on the river, but one of those, the 9 will probably be a killer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah for the flush that is. Look at the flop again.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Isura commented: I think you are referring to a similar hand in SSH where Ed is talking about a vulnerable TT hand. But in that case someone had already bet, and there were callers

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That is what I was thinking about, Isura. TT Overpair pg. 187. And yes, in that hand, the hero was on the button so I see the principal being illustrated may not apply here. Ya. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Isura]

Your welcome. Yeah, some of the SSH concepts are pretty tough to learn to apply correctly. The chapter with the TT hand is especially subtle.

[chopchoi]

Good fold.

[gopnik]

I am not folding this turn. You have 4 outs to a fullhouse and you might still be ahead here (SB could have A8 or something like that). Call the turn bet and reevaluate on the river.

[waynethetrain]

/images/graemlins/blush.gif