Fun w/AJo [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Entity

03-30-2005, 02:05 AM

Apologies to the Dude for stealing his trademark, but I like it.

MP3 is loose-aggressive preflop but is more reasonable postflop. CO is short-stacked and has 1BB left after his preflop cap.

UTG is very loose and neutral postflop.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, MP3 3-bets, CO caps, 3 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (18.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO raises (all-in), UTG calls, Hero raises...

SCfuji

03-30-2005, 02:13 AM

you knew the co was going to go all in so you used him to get an extra sb into the pot after utg just called the raise pretty much saying that you have the best hand.

next street?

Entity

03-30-2005, 02:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
you knew the co was going to go all in so you used him to get an extra sb into the pot after utg just called the raise pretty much saying that you have the best hand.

next street?

[/ QUOTE ]

The rest of the hand is pretty boring, but yeah, that was it. No raises from LAG + no raises from UTG mean my hand is the best at this point in time.

Yobz

03-30-2005, 02:44 AM

Having the reads you do I think it is an interesting play, but the call/raise screams that you have a good hand. Then again its .5/1 and your opps probably dont even know what they are doing, much less paying attention to you

Entity

03-30-2005, 03:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
but the call/raise screams that you have a good hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but I don't think I'm going to get a ton more out of MP3. He's a LAG preflop but he's aware. What other lines would you consider?

Rob

Yobz

03-30-2005, 11:00 PM

Well, you have some very strong reads it seems like. Since one guy has only 1 BB left, hes probably just gonna spew it away anyway and if someone is LAG preflop then you can call the cap w/AJo, so preflop is fine.
Once again, since one guy is just gonna raise it anyway, your call/raise is good. Its still a very interesting play, what would you do without the reads?
I would fold PF w/o the preflop LAG read and if the other guy had 25BBs in front of him...if I did call, I would probably raise the flop and if 3-bet then I will fold to a turn bet UI or call down if he is somewhat LAGgy postflop, too.

NAU_Player

03-30-2005, 11:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (18.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO raises (all-in), UTG calls, Hero raises...

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just sexy.

FreakDaddy

03-30-2005, 11:33 PM

Raising PF with junk with two EP callers is a mortal sin in NL. In limit you MAY get away with sometime. I would suppose you had good read on both EP players. I'd only open-raise with this hand personally.
Although the texture of the flop is pretty good for you, I'd still argue for raising after UTG bets to trim the field down a bit.
What was your thinking throughout this hand?

Aaron W.

03-30-2005, 11:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Raising PF with junk with two EP callers is a mortal sin in NL. In limit you MAY get away with sometime. I would suppose you had good read on both EP players. I'd only open-raise with this hand personally.
Although the texture of the flop is pretty good for you, I'd still argue for raising after UTG bets to trim the field down a bit.
What was your thinking throughout this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

You do know that AJo isn't junk, right? Folding AJo preflop in a micro limit game is cutting close to that 'mortal sin' you're thinking about.

davelin

03-30-2005, 11:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Raising PF with junk with two EP callers is a mortal sin in NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

NL is a vastly different game than limit.

GrunchCan

03-30-2005, 11:59 PM

Thanks for posting this. There's been a lot of passivity PF with AJo lately around here.

FreakDaddy

03-31-2005, 12:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising PF with junk with two EP callers is a mortal sin in NL. In limit you MAY get away with sometime. I would suppose you had good read on both EP players. I'd only open-raise with this hand personally.
Although the texture of the flop is pretty good for you, I'd still argue for raising after UTG bets to trim the field down a bit.
What was your thinking throughout this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

You do know that AJo isn't junk, right? Folding AJo preflop in a micro limit game is cutting close to that 'mortal sin' you're thinking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's junk, but like I said, in limit (especially micro) you can get away with it.

davelin

03-31-2005, 12:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It's junk, but like I said, in limit (especially micro) you can get away with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't tell by the tone of your post, are you saying that playing AJo here is still wrong but you can make up for the mistake? Or are you saying because NL is so different than limit, it gives different valuations of this hand so that it can be profitable in one situation and different in another?

GrunchCan

03-31-2005, 12:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It's junk, but like I said, in limit (especially micro) you can get away with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't make any sense at all. How can any hand that is +EV to play (and play aggressively) be junk? What criteria do you use to determine that AJo is a junk holding? Becasue if its not the EV of the hand, its the wrong criteria.

In fact, assuming you are using the EV of playing AJo as the criteria (which you must be, as anything else is just illogical), you yourself have said its not a junk hand, since you advocate playing it. Therefore your statement is directly self-contradictory.

Aaron W.

03-31-2005, 12:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It's junk, but like I said, in limit (especially micro) you can get away with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the average pokerroom idiot (http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/totalStats.php?order=card) is making .19 BB/hand with this junk hand, I'd hate to discover what your standards for a decent hand look like.

FreakDaddy

03-31-2005, 01:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's junk, but like I said, in limit (especially micro) you can get away with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't tell by the tone of your post, are you saying that playing AJo here is still wrong but you can make up for the mistake? Or are you saying because NL is so different than limit, it gives different valuations of this hand so that it can be profitable in one situation and different in another?

[/ QUOTE ]

Entity is a good player. He can get away with playing this hand. I posted this statement because so many beginners fall in love with AJo and it's not really that great of a hand. Bottom line, it's still a marginal hand in limit especially when you don't have position AND there are EP limpers. In this case, Entity had a read on one of them and felt confident about raising this hand.

What are the stats for your AJo from this position? I'm just curious.

FreakDaddy

03-31-2005, 01:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's junk, but like I said, in limit (especially micro) you can get away with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't make any sense at all. How can any hand that is +EV to play (and play aggressively) be junk? What criteria do you use to determine that AJo is a junk holding? Becasue if its not the EV of the hand, its the wrong criteria.

[/ QUOTE ]

Position. Early limpers. Like I said, I'd open/raise this hand from any position, but I'd limp after two EP callers. The hand becomes slightly -EV after that.

UncleSalty

03-31-2005, 01:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It's junk, but like I said, in limit (especially micro) you can get away with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The tone of your post implies that NL is just limit played for bigger stakes. The reason AJ is a weaker hand in NL is because when you hit the flop with it you usually either win a small pot or lose a big one. NL doesn't allow you to take advantage of this hand's straight potential either, because opponents can take away your odds. In limit this is a much stronger starting hand and not junk at all.

When you say in micros you can "get away with it", I guess you mean because you get odds to draw to a straight more often than you would in a tighter high-stakes limit game. But, this is the micros forum, and we're all here to talk about maximizing our returns in these types of game. I guess I just don't really understand the point of your comment.

sin808

03-31-2005, 01:09 AM

(.86)BB/Hand /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

that's the only position it's in the red though.

UncleSalty

03-31-2005, 01:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Entity is a good player. He can get away with playing this hand. I posted this statement because so many beginners fall in love with AJo and it's not really that great of a hand. Bottom line, it's still a marginal hand in limit especially when you don't have position AND there are EP limpers. In this case, Entity had a read on one of them and felt confident about raising this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This clears up some of what I didn't understand, but I still don't agree with your statement about the EP limpers. I feel that EP limpers most likely have an equal or lesser hand than AJo, or else they would be raising.

FreakDaddy

03-31-2005, 01:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's junk, but like I said, in limit (especially micro) you can get away with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the average pokerroom idiot (http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/totalStats.php?order=card) is making .19 BB/hand with this junk hand, I'd hate to discover what your standards for a decent hand look like.

[/ QUOTE ]

This hand is junk in this particular hand imo. I don't know how else to illustrate this other than to offer an example. One that I think most of you already understand.

Let's say you have K8s UTG - you'd throw this away without a thought correct? Now let's say you're on the button with the same hand and you have 6 limpers. This hand now becomes slightly +EV and is worth a call.

Your pokerroom stats don't take into conisderation position or pre-flop play. EV is a fluctuating number based on the number of players in the hand, your relative and absolute position.

FreakDaddy

03-31-2005, 01:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's junk, but like I said, in limit (especially micro) you can get away with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The tone of your post implies that NL is just limit played for bigger stakes. The reason AJ is a weaker hand in NL is because when you hit the flop with it you usually either win a small pot or lose a big one. NL doesn't allow you to take advantage of this hand's straight potential either, because opponents can take away your odds. In limit this is a much stronger starting hand and not junk at all.

When you say in micros you can "get away with it", I guess you mean because you get odds to draw to a straight more often than you would in a tighter high-stakes limit game. But, this is the micros forum, and we're all here to talk about maximizing our returns in these types of game. I guess I just don't really understand the point of your comment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently my tone implies a lot of things on this post. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Let me be clarify my post again since things are starting to get read out of context. AJo is junk in this hand imo.

KingOtter

03-31-2005, 01:33 AM

Okay, I had to think long and hard about this one... and actually I've done something like this in the past, when I was paying particular good attention to my opponents.

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, MP3 3-bets, CO caps, 3 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like AJo when the preflop gets capped coming back. But given the reads, and if I've seen MP3 raise with any pocket pair, A-x and K-x, I'd call him. CO... well, liability against his hand is limited, so you'll really only have to beat MP3.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (18.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO raises (all-in), UTG calls, Hero raises...

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting bet from UTG... he has an Ace perhaps? I like raising to build a side-pot that you have a good chance of winning, hoping MP3 doesn't have QQ, AK, AQ (which is unlikely, since he is LAGgy pre-flop).

KO

UncleSalty

03-31-2005, 01:39 AM

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

First, lest things continue to be mis-read: I certainly respect a lot of the posts I've seen you make and am enjoying this discussion.

I think a lot of the time when you raise AJo after 2 limpers you can expect to fold MP3 and CO and buy yourself the button. I'm assuming that is the initial goal of Entity's raise. I think the percent of the time this move is successful is what largely makes this a +EV hand. Playing it passively from MP with up front limpers may very well drop the EV and make this hand "junkier". Would you agree that AJ is a good hand when you've acquired good position?

Catt

03-31-2005, 01:49 AM

I would like to be dealt lots of junk, please.

Aaron W.

03-31-2005, 02:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's junk, but like I said, in limit (especially micro) you can get away with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the average pokerroom idiot (http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/totalStats.php?order=card) is making .19 BB/hand with this junk hand, I'd hate to discover what your standards for a decent hand look like.

[/ QUOTE ]

This hand is junk in this particular hand imo. I don't know how else to illustrate this other than to offer an example. One that I think most of you already understand.

Let's say you have K8s UTG - you'd throw this away without a thought correct? Now let's say you're on the button with the same hand and you have 6 limpers. This hand now becomes slightly +EV and is worth a call.

Your pokerroom stats don't take into conisderation position or pre-flop play. EV is a fluctuating number based on the number of players in the hand, your relative and absolute position.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, AJo is simply far from junk at the micros. You can look up the EV by position (http://www.pokerroom.com/main/page/games/evstats/expValue). I'd link to the AJo page directly, except that there's a script that they run to give you the data. You're not going to find "with two limpers in front of you" as an option, but it will get you about as close as you can hope to get.

The heart of the dispute seem to be that you greatly overestimate the preflop selection and postflop play of the two limpers in front of you. Not only are you quite likely to have the best hand of the three of you, given that you have position on them and the assumed better postflop play, you stand to make a killing with that hand in that position. The raise also keeps players behind you from playing their speculative multi-way hands which will make protecting your hand difficult (well... it at least makes them call incorrectly if they choose to play them). Your raise also helps to buy position. Limping this hand is +EV, but not as +EV as raising it.

yellowjack

03-31-2005, 02:12 AM

I love using the shortstacks to check/call-reraise because you know they're going to bet/raise behind you. They're my pets.

FreakDaddy

03-31-2005, 03:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]

No, AJo is simply far from junk at the micros. You can look up the EV by position (http://www.pokerroom.com/main/page/games/evstats/expValue). I'd link to the AJo page directly, except that there's a script that they run to give you the data. You're not going to find "with two limpers in front of you" as an option, but it will get you about as close as you can hope to get.

The heart of the dispute seem to be that you greatly overestimate the preflop selection and postflop play of the two limpers in front of you. Not only are you quite likely to have the best hand of the three of you, given that you have position on them and the assumed better postflop play, you stand to make a killing with that hand in that position. The raise also keeps players behind you from playing their speculative multi-way hands which will make protecting your hand difficult (well... it at least makes them call incorrectly if they choose to play them). Your raise also helps to buy position. Limping this hand is +EV, but not as +EV as raising it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the discussion. I don't trust pookeroom stats but I went over my own stats and AJo in that position is .15 for me, but I limp most of the time. Now I don't have stats with EP pre-flop limpers, but at .5/1 you're probably right. It may be slightly more EV to raise. This discussion may have brought up a slight leak for me so it's worth further consideration. It's still debatable in my eyes, but I do play slightly more NL than limit.