Finally, A worthy slowplay example. [Archive]

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A_C_Slater

03-28-2005, 06:41 PM

Paradise Poker $1-2 9 handed

Table is quite tight at about 28% flops seen. Blind steals and folds to the blinds are common.

5 folds, AC raises with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in CO, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls.

(6 SB)
3 players FLOP:
9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checks, BB bets, AC calls, SB raises, BB reraises, AC calls, SB calls.

(7 BB)
3 players TURN:
9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, BB bets, AC calls, SB calls.

(10 BB)
3 players RIVER: 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, BB bets, AC calls.....?

Anyone think I would have gotten more money by capping the flop? I think doing so would have caused the SB to drop on the turn.

davelin

03-28-2005, 06:45 PM

I'm raising that turn.

toss

03-28-2005, 06:49 PM

I don't think capping the flop would net you more. I'd rather keep make sure to keep SB in rather than getting 1 more BB into the pot. I'd call that river too since I suspect SB has a baby flush.

Yobz

03-28-2005, 06:52 PM

I think this was alright, a little odd.

I love the river: if BB had a set or 2 pair (which is what he is representing, that or a 2nd best flush) with the 9 then your river play was perfect. If you raised and your ahead, SB folds and BB calls (1 extra bet). If you raised and you where behind SB folds and BB re-raises and you have to call (you lose 2 bets).

As for the other streets: if you cap the flop then it SCREAMS monster (if your opps are at all good, they will know that) but not raising BB's bet after your PFR is a little sketchy too. I would probably raise the flop and play from there. If SB raised and BB capped, I would bet/raise the rest of the way and call the river being scared of a full house (bet if check too, though).

atnels

03-28-2005, 06:52 PM

I think that you should have capped the flop. You said that the table was tight preflop, but what about postflop? SB has already shown some agression, so I would be inclined to expect him to call a cap back to him.

The thing about hands like this is you're not really sure what you're hoping for on the turn. Is somebody holding onto a single /images/graemlins/diamond.gif? Or will the forth diamond scare somebody off? I say get the bets in while you have the chance.

I think I would raise the turn... but again others might disagree. It all depends on what the table has been doing postflop.

jaxUp

03-28-2005, 06:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm raising that turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

btspider

03-28-2005, 07:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm raising that turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

easy turn raise dude.

Catt

03-28-2005, 07:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm raising that turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that this was a great chance to raise the turn. The flop action certainly looks like at least one lesser flush, and when the black T falls on the turn, the lesser flush has got to believe you hit a straight. You could end up getting the turn and the river capped with the nut flush!

A_C_Slater

03-28-2005, 07:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm raising that turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that this was a great chance to raise the turn. The flop action certainly looks like at least one lesser flush, and when the black T falls on the turn, the lesser flush has got to believe you hit a straight. You could end up getting the turn and the river capped with the nut flush!

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, but that seems very unlikely. It just seems to me that there was 2 good players playing their marginal hands aggressively against a perceived CO steal attempt. And if their hands were indeed marginal, then I wanted them to keep betting. Where as a raise would cause them to shut down or even fold, once they figure I might indeed have a real raising hand.

davelin

03-28-2005, 07:33 PM

I just find it instinctively wrong when you flopped the nut flush, have the best hand like >80% by the river and can't find a raise somewhere.

A_C_Slater

03-28-2005, 07:38 PM

SB had A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB had T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

That's what SB gets for slowplaying his AK to my CO steal.

And that's what BB gets for defending with that trash.

davelin

03-28-2005, 07:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
SB had A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB had T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

That's what SB gets for slowplaying his AK to my CO steal.

And that's what BB gets for defending with that trash.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we're being blunt about others' play, you missed out on some BBs.

Marquis

03-28-2005, 07:44 PM

Doesn't "slowplay" imply that you eventually raise?

waynethetrain

03-28-2005, 07:55 PM

I can't see any logic to not raising the turn.

A_C_Slater

03-28-2005, 08:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't see any logic to not raising the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not any? Maybe SB and BB would fold costing me 3 potential BB's. Or maybe just the SB folds costing me 1 BB.

I forgot to add SB called on the River.

A_C_Slater

03-28-2005, 08:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't "slowplay" imply that you eventually raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. It just means playing a hand passivly as opposed to fast, because there is probably more profit in playing it as such.

Catt

03-28-2005, 08:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm raising that turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that this was a great chance to raise the turn. The flop action certainly looks like at least one lesser flush, and when the black T falls on the turn, the lesser flush has got to believe you hit a straight. You could end up getting the turn and the river capped with the nut flush!

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, but that seems very unlikely. It just seems to me that there was 2 good players playing their marginal hands aggressively against a perceived CO steal attempt. And if their hands were indeed marginal, then I wanted them to keep betting. Where as a raise would cause them to shut down or even fold, once they figure I might indeed have a real raising hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point, but I am inclined to believe that at least BB, and hopefully SB, will at least call a turn raise, if not 3-bet it. I think you'd need a very solid read on BB to conclude that a player who 3-bets a monotone flop is going to bet-fold the turn. You gain 1 BB when SB overcalls, but I would be darn near certain that you get that same 1 BB from Villain when he calls your turn raise. The upside is that SB calls anyway and/or Villain 3-bets you. The offsuit T was really a fantastic card for you on the turn -- having slowplayed the flop, most players are going to put you on a turned straight when you raise and will only realize they've been jamming into the nuts when you turn over your hand at showdown. And if he doesn't have the flopped flush (as it turns out he didn't) do you think he folds his TPTK to your raise on the turn when, in your own view, he might very well think he is punishing a loosey-goosey blind steal?

Siegmund

03-28-2005, 08:29 PM

Yet another vote for popping the turn to represent the straight.

Yes it may cost you a bet if the clown with five red cards wakes up and notices they aren't all the same shape. But both blinds are coming on awfully hard for you to ever believe neither one of them has a flush or high draw to one.

waynethetrain

03-28-2005, 08:35 PM

I think once you get to the turn, you have to raise against a few players unless you have top full house. Flushes get cracked in big fields sometimes. When I'm not sure what everyone has and what they will do, my default is aggressive in a situation like this.

Aaron W.

03-28-2005, 08:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Table is quite tight at about 28% flops seen. Blind steals and folds to the blinds are common.

[/ QUOTE ]

Paradise $1/2 is a much more interesting game than those loose passive Party games I read about here.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone think I would have gotten more money by capping the flop? I think doing so would have caused the SB to drop on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have call-capped the flop. It makes you look like an idiot capping for fun on the scary board. (And the flop call is fine because you have the nut flush -- if you had a wimpy flush, raising is appropriate to drive out a higher diamond, if possible.)

But failing that, you've got to raise the turn. With a hand like this, you want to go to war *SOMEWHERE*. Picking up one bet from two opponents is nothing like picking up four bets from one. You only need to get that half as often to come out ahead, plus you'll pick up extra bets those times SB has the queen or jack of diamonds and can't let it go.

FishHooks

03-28-2005, 08:39 PM

i dont mind the turn call, i think going for the over call is better here, but I do think you should of raised the river. someone with 2 pair will call you down on the river wondering what you have since you've just been smooth calling from the flop.

Aaron W.

03-28-2005, 08:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i dont mind the turn call, i think going for the over call is better here, but I do think you should of raised the river. someone with 2 pair will call you down on the river wondering what you have since you've just been smooth calling from the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I think you want to raise on the turn because that's the only time you can collect from hands that are still drawing. By the river, you're playing the "made hand" game.

TomBrooks

03-28-2005, 08:50 PM

I like not capping the flop as that screams nut flush or high flush and could put a damper on the turn betting. But when the betting war did not continue on the turn, I raise. If I get reraised, I cap.

KaiShin

03-28-2005, 09:07 PM

Flop slowplay is OK, I'd raise the turn for sure. You missed bets here.

wabe

03-28-2005, 10:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm raising that turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto. "Please believe I'm trying to bluff...please."

shadow29

03-28-2005, 11:03 PM

Didn't read this thread.

Guys, if you NEVER slowplay at .05/.10 --> 1/2 you will be fine. Your winrate might even be higher.

bottomset

03-29-2005, 01:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Didn't read this thread.

Guys, if you NEVER slowplay at .05/.10 --> 1/2 you will be fine. Your winrate might even be higher.

[/ QUOTE ]

obsidian

03-29-2005, 02:41 AM

Here's a better slow play:
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB raises, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls, SB folds.

Turn: (6.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB bets, MP1 calls, Hero raises, BB calls, MP1 calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB bets, MP1 calls, Hero raises, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 18.50 BB

Like others said, raise/reraise the turn and raise/call the river.

A_C_Slater

03-29-2005, 02:54 AM

That's different though. You are last to act and don't have to be concerned about overcalls. Of course I would raise if it goes bet, call, and there's no one left to act behind me. Unless of course I hate money, which I assure you, I do not.

Also, on the River you have the stone nuts and in my example the board pairs. It is not a better example, do you see why?

ErrantNight

03-29-2005, 03:03 AM

you realize you flopped the nut flush and never put a raise in... on any street... right?

ErrantNight

03-29-2005, 03:05 AM

way not to charge them for it.

TripleH68

03-29-2005, 03:11 AM

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, MP1 raises, 3 folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP1 folds, Button calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, Button folds, SB calls.

River: (9.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls $4 (All-In).

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has Tc Ac (two pair, tens and fives).
Hero has Ad 3d (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins 11.50 BB.

A_C_Slater

03-29-2005, 03:17 AM

I don't like the turn raise. SB was shortstacked anyway. Why not give the button a chance to catch something? SB is going to give you the rest of his stake anyway. You know the old "Oh god, what the hell, might as well raise and try to get him to fold, because I only have 8 dollars left anyway" mentality.

davelin

03-29-2005, 11:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the turn raise. SB was shortstacked anyway. Why not give the button a chance to catch something? SB is going to give you the rest of his stake anyway. You know the old "Oh god, what the hell, might as well raise and try to get him to fold, because I only have 8 dollars left anyway" mentality.

[/ QUOTE ]

Typically when you flop a monster on a draw-heavy board you want to go to war on the turn. Other drawing hands are going to pay off on the turn in order to try to hit. Waiting until the river to get drawing hands to pay off is foolish.

TomBrooks

03-29-2005, 11:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Waiting until the river to get drawing hands to pay off is foolish.

[/ QUOTE ]...because if they miss they will fold and you will get nothing.

If a fourth flush card comes on the turn, you will likely get nothing also, unless someone else has a high flush card.

That really stinks when you have such a good hand. If you raise, yes they might fold and that is too bad, but if you don't raise your not going to get much anyway. I like to try raising and often I find I will get a lot more. The times I get more considerably outweigh the times I get less.

Entity

03-29-2005, 11:59 AM

In a steal-resteal situation, I'd raise the flop here, because I think it'll make me more likely to be played back at.

I'd definitely raise the turn.

davelin

03-29-2005, 12:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That really stinks when you have such a good hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah give me KK OOP with 4 other callers and an Ace on the board anyday. Sorry for the sarcasm /images/graemlins/smile.gif You're either going to get paid on these hands or not. Everyone sees the flopped flush possibility on the board and is wary of it, nothing is really going to change. Get your money in and start worrying about more marginal situations.

I've said it before, I think the burden of evidence is on why should we slowplay versus fastplay, not the other way around.

TomBrooks

03-29-2005, 12:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
SB had A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif
BB had T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
That's what SB gets for slowplaying his AK to my CO steal.
And that's what BB gets for defending with that trash.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that's what you get for not raising.

BB made two pair and had a flush redraw on the turn and SB had top pair top kicker. The table was set for them to pay you off.

wabe

03-29-2005, 11:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Waiting until the river to get drawing hands to pay off is foolish.

[/ QUOTE ]...because if they miss they will fold and you will get nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quoted for truth. Go to war on the turn, not the river.