FOXWOODS: 5-10 HAND

[CJC]

Hey again everybody..

I ventured up to Foxwoods this afternoon for a quick session and to meet MRB. It was a pleasure to meet MRB today. He is a very kind gentleman and I look forward to meeting up with him again in the future. ( Hopefully we will get a chance to speak for a little longer than we could today, I was only able to stay up there for a few hours )

Anywhoo, on to the poker..

I must say that I am EXTREMELY unhappy with my play today. ( probably very fortunate I could only stay a couple of hours /forums/images/icons/blush.gif ) I can't remember the last time I played a session of poker that weak passive. ( what? me passive.. I know, unreal ) And my weak passive play showed in my results cause I donated a couple of stacks today in that short time, and I only have myself to blame for it..
Sometimes I need to remind myself not to play poker on 2 hours of sleep.. Doh....

Anywhoo..

I would like to talk about one of the 3 hands that I did win. ( yes only 3.. well 3 of significance anyway )
I know I'm kinda spoiling it here, but I think this hand is worth analyzing..

I'm also going to spread this post out over a few days so we can discuss (debate) each street thoroughly.

Here we go..

I am forced low with (Ad4c)4d and bring it in for $2.
Qs completes the bet to $5
7c and 5s fold.
10c calls
7h calls
Kh folds.

Action back to me and I throw three white chips to the felt.

4th street
-----------
10c pairs his doorcard with 10h and bets big $10 bet.
7h catches 8h and raises to $20
I am next to act with (Ad4c)4d 4h

Whats my play??

The Qs who raised third street caught 9s is to act after me.

Once again the boards and action are...

(xx)10c10h -- bets $10
(xx)7h8h -- raises $20
(Ad4c)4d4h -- ME
(xx)Qs9s

So once again what's my play? ( well I guess we know I at least called cause we know I won the hand.. but what would you have done?? )

This hand will get interesting..

CJ

[SittingBull]

fold or raise with this hand on 4th.
U would like some information about the 10's. early.
If he doesn't come over the top AFTER U raise him,then he probably does NOT have a set.
However,if he re-raises U,U should fold your hand.
If the 10's is NOT a loose player, U should fold.
If he plays many 3rd Str. hands,U should raise 4th.
There is less of a chance he has U beat.
U also want to discourage several overpairs from tagging along. If they choose to tag along,make them pay full price.


Happy pokering,
Sitting Bull
BTW,U played while U were on the "vacation mentality"--a poker disease acquired by some players away from home.
I believe this is the main reason y U dropped 2 racks.
But I know --U wanted to play anyway.
U did not come all that way just to sleep--U wanted to get some action because U did not have that much time to play---EVEN THOUGH U WERE DEAD TIRED-- What happened to your discipline??
Hmmmm
Just wondering
Sittng bull

[CJC]

only dropped 2 STACKS.. not racks.. If I had lost 2 racks in a 5-10 game in just a few hours I would never play poker again. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

I don't know about 'vacation mentality', but I sure as hell didn't take control of the betting like I normally do.

CJ

i would just call on fourth and try to raise later. in a bigger limit game with better players you may as well raise again since even by calling in this spot they will probably figure out your hand. not so at 5-10. if you raise you will probably lose the Q( and maybe even the paired tens and you dont want this to happen.

glad you won it because hands like this are very costly when you lose them.

Pat

There is no way that I would ever fold this hand.

I would most likely raise, because at this point it is a big pot and I don't want to give any cheap cards to anyone. If I was convinced I was beat, I would just call and chase for the full house.

If I reraised and made it 30 around, there is no way I am folding for another $10, even if the 10's showed me the third 10. At this point there will be approximately 100-120 in the pot for $10 more to me. Even if I was forced to call all the rest of the way (40 more) at this time, it would still be 40 to WIN 160 or I would be getting 4-1 odds on this pot. NO FOLD, NO WAY.

Well since you won folding is not right, /forums/images/icons/blush.gif but you are againt 2? flush draws or 1 flush and over pair with flush possibly and two higher pr's ( everything is higher than 4's)or set bigger than you, tough. this is a hand play to the end or quit right now. I would not take a card off. folding would be all right if you lossing a lot today ie... "cards running bad", bad night, but raising will make the flush stay to end and you will need to fill to win, you are getting odds to play if all four draw to end but if they do you must fill to win. feeling good /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif call, raising will not do you any good. lol /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

I am shocked that people are even considering folding this hand. Raise or call, but no matter what, you are in until the end unless opponent hits trip 10s or two open pair and gets raised. Otherwise, you are stuck in. That's it. No folding. No taking off one card and seeing what happens. Unless you have seeing eye glasses, one does not fold trips on 4th street in a 4 way raised pot like this. Period, the end. All this folding talk is way overanalyzing.

[Eric P]

folding is not too insane an idea here. Say you fill and 10's was a set, it's not too hard to imagine them filling too. I forget but if an ace is dead then it might actually be RIGHT to fold. either way you have to fill here to win if you are against the two (let's just assume) flush draws; not to mention one could be over pair with 3 to the flush. You may very well be winning but if not, you have a lot of catching up to do, and if you are you aren't too far ahead. IMO, raise and try to knock out the Q behind you, she can't be right to call unless there is a four flush... but there might be a four flush. People probably won't fold so i guess calling/folding is right. Although i would probably raise here 100% of the time in a live game.

I hate the reply that says to make it three bets and then fold immediately if the tens make it four bets. The pot odds make that play ridiculous. I am also bothered by the fact that no one mentions that the 87 suited may have trips. Folding is not wrong against some players. Both calling and raising mark you for trips so deception is not part of the equation here. The biggest argument for not folding is mathematical. You will fill up 40% of the time and a full house should win about half the time.

[SittingBull]

when U are not runnung well.
No big deal!
I generally lose about 30BB's when I'm not running well.
However,20%-30% of my losses are /forums/images/icons/frown.gif due to BAD PLAY ON MY PART.

So , instead of going home losing 20BB,I go home losing 30BB's.

Hmmm
happy pokering,
Sitting Bull

[SittingBull]

knew for a fact that your opponent had a set of T's on 4th.
For one million iterations in this spot,assuming the other players /forums/images/icons/smile.gif continue to play, is the set of 4's a money favorite and is expected to win more money than lose over this # of trials??

Just wondering,
Happy pokering,
Sitting Bull

[CJC]

Hello Again All,

Interesting posts from people here.

I must say one thing.. Folding was not an option ( against this field particularly ).

However..

I wasn't positive raising here was the best option either. First of all, a raise has already been accomplished by the
78h, so if the 1010 has trips he still has the opportunity to re-raise. Also the 78h may have a set also ( however unlikely with that opponent, but still a possibility ) If I just call and the 2 other opponents just call. A) I know I am in the drivers seat ( so long as 78h doesn't have set ) and B) I am getting money in the pot from those two hands who have a long ways to catch up.

SO

I just called. The Qs9s cold called the 2 bets and the 1010 just called the 1 bet.

Now we move on to 5th street......

(xx)10c10h9c -- Check(called when action went back to him)
(xx)7h8h6h -- Bets $10
(Ad4c)4d4h8d -- I call
(xx)Qs9s2s -- Calls

I was kinda kickin myself in the ass here for not re-raising on 4th street, cause as you can see the cards hit everbody..

6th Street
----------

(xx)10c10h9c8c
(xx)7h8h6h3s
(Ad4c)4d4h8dKd
(xx)Qs9s2s5c

I'm expecting some comments from my play on 6th..

It went..

(xx)10c10h9c8c -- check
(xx)7h8h6h3s -- Bets $10
(Ad4c)4d4h8dKd -- I raise to $20
(xx)Qs9s2s5c

This is where we are going to leave off today boys and girls.

We will continue on with our discussion tomorrow.

CJ

[SittingBull]

warrents playing when one is a "money favorite",from a psychological factor ,it's best to toss the hand away if one believes his opponent has a higher set.
In low and low medium limit games,MOST players do not think in terms of being a "money favorite". These players think in terms of being "the favorite to win the pot".
If they continue to play with their "money favorite" hands
in any given session and lose,and then REALIZE that they were chasing a higher set,then their thinking would most likely be as follows: "Damn it! Why did I continue to chase with my small set! /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif I just knew he had a set of T's!"
This negative thinking will usually cause his game to deteriorate because he BELIEVED that he played the hand poorly ,EVEN THOUGH he did not.
Hence,what will usually occur for that session is that he will play many more hands poorly(going on semi-tilt) and will usually lose more than he should have lost during that session.
Remember,he WILL lose 60% of his sessions in this spot.

So,strictly from a mathematical point of view and for the few players who do think in terms of being a "money favorite' at these limits,I agree with U--the hand should continue.
But MOST players at these limits do NOT think in terms of being a "money favorite".
Because of the adverse psychological affect that his negative thinking would cause,I disagree with U that he should continue with the hand if he believes his opponent has a higher set .

As for me,I would fold upon a re-raise,EVEN being aware that I am a "money favorite".
The reason is that I WILL usually still go on tilt if my opponent REALLy had a set of T's.
Hence,my game would deteriorate ,causing me to lose more than I should have lost. I know what I said is illogical,but that does not change my behavior.

In summery,mathematics is great,but one should NOT ignore the psychology of the game.

Happy pokering,
Sitting Bull

This would have been a lot more fun if we didn't know you won.

[Eric P]

I agree it would have been. Personally i'm hoping that 10's did have a set and fills, and you catch a four. I can't see how you don't bet here, if your up against a flush (which you most likely are, unless you know something we don't) you still have a dimond for nut flush, plus you have a pretty nice chance to fill her up here. With no dead dimonds, aces or kings besides your own, and with one live eight and four you have to be okay to raise. It occurs to me that Q925 (3 spades) could have had 2 pair on 4th street and is just praying for a boat since they didn't raise after catching the spade on fifth. Anyone else think this is possible? It doesn't really matter what you do hear as long as you don't fold, but i think raising is the play.

[Eric P]

David said that once you fill (40%) of the time you win probably half. If the 10's and 78s have trips at this point you can't possilbly win as much as half the time here. Not that i'm saying he should fold.

[Andy B]

I'm a little late jumping into the fray here. I will grant you that I am a bit of a pay station, but there is no way in hell I'm folding on fourth street unless the other guy shows me trip Tens. An advantage of calling the double-bet as opposed to three-betting is that you can probably gauge whether TT has trips. I know that I couldn't pass up the opportunity to three-bet with trip Tens with three opponents.

I would also call on fifth. It is rather unlikely that you have the best hand. 87s might have been raising with trips, in which case you're behind, but he might also have raised with a flush draw, in which case you're also behind. You are going to have to improve to win.

On sixth street, you've picked up a bunch more outs. Probably. You are still behind, in all likelihood, so you should raise only if that will get someone out that you want out. I'm going to guess that the guy showing Queen-high flush has the flush, but is scared. You probably want him in, as you will beat him if you connect. I'm going to guess that the TT guy has a pocket pair, probably higher than Fours. Given the size of the pot, if your raise will get him to fold, it may be worthwhile. On the other hand, could he be sandbagging with a full house? I won't argue with the raise much, but I'd probably just call and hope to snag the case Four. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[CJC]

Hello everyone..

I thought the 6th street raise was easy.

First.. It is still possible that my hand is best.

Second.. I am convinced at this point I have the best draw if I don't have the best hand. ( I am fairly certain that if the opponent with 1010 had trips he would have pounced earlier by now )

After I raised 6th the (xx)Qs9s2s5c finally folded and both other opponents just called.

River
------
Well I catch the case 8 to give me a boat.

1010 hand checks.. then the (xx)7h8h6h3s BETS into me again.

I raise to $20.
1010 hand folds and my lone opponent just calls.

(xx)7h8h6h3s hand had pocket Aces (including the Ace of hearts ) and made an Ace High flush on the river.

1010 opponent told me after that he had a straight,but he knew it was no good when I raised the river again. ( such respect /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif )

I thought this hand was interesting cause if you examine the play of all my opponents. They screwed up just about every part of it. /forums/images/icons/cool.gif Gotta love 5-10


CJ

[Andy B]

Well, I grant you that I can't read hands to save my life, but I never would have put the guy with the straight flush board on pocket Aces. First off, he didn't re-raise third street. Secondly, while waiting until fourth to pop it is defensible, I can't imagine doing so against two paired door cards. I still think the sixth street raise is dubious. Also, did the guy really have Aces and make a flush, or is that just what he said? His play makes a lot more sense if he had the flush, and maybe he just caught a second Ace on the end. Anyway, I think that a set or a made flush is a more likely hand than one pair and a flush draw, and I think I would have played the hand more cautiously than you on the later streets.

Now if the guy with the flush had been raising a lot on flimsy values, I'd tend to discount his raises and play my trip Fours more aggressively, but there was nothing in your post to suggest that he was anything other than a typical player. If a guy is a maniac, say so in your post.

I won't say you played great, but you are right that your opponents played lousy. Nice hit. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[CJC]

Hey Andy,

Actually I am almost convinced that he did have pocket Aces. First he never re-raised 6th. He just called.. but then he proceeds to be into me on the river? He most likely called the re-raise with pocket Aces and a four flush. One of the reasons I raised on 6th is cause it was much less likely he had trips ( notice the cards that were out by that point ) and that he DID have a big pocket pair and a four flush. I wouldn't call him a maniac. I would just say he was an extremely weak player. He had slowplayed big pocket pairs on third street all afternoon. ( even when raised into him )

You need to remember that this was a 5-10 game. ( and one here in the Northeast ) A typical game filled with clueless players who rarely take into account their opponents holdings! Now if this was a 15-30 game, it woulda been a whole different story.

As always, thanks for the responses..

CJ

one thing about the river play is that i almost always go for an overcall here if i am next to act after a bettor. but you are right about the foxwoods games, i think they are as good as any in the country, and i make more there at 5-10 than i do at 10-20 in AC.unfortunately i dont get up there that often (marriage bug).

Pat

[SittingBull]

there is 120 in the pot . It's 10 for u to continue.
Your opponent then shows u a set of 10's.
Would u continue to play 4th thru 6th hoping to make your full-house and win this pot?
Hmmmmm
Just wondering
Happy pokering,Andy!

Sitting Bull

[Andy B]

With $120 in the pot, I'm getting odds to call to the river in the hopes that I fill and he doesn't. But there wasn't anything like $120 in the pot.

[SittingBull]

/forums/images/icons/blush.gif

[Andy B]

Larry,

The pot would have become $100 or $120 or whatever had CJ three-bet it and someone came over the top. This didn't happen. I don't feel like adding it up, but the pot was much smaller than that.