KK - Early against a loose table

[Cleveland Guy]

This is about the 6th hand - first hand I have played, but I have seen some big raises here for Level 1.

The table is playing very loose pre-flop, but seems to have calmed down post flop with only 1 of the first 5 hands going to showdown.

Hero is SB with KK.

5 Limps to hero. Pot = 130. Hero goes for the over bet of 200.

Smooth called by 3 of the limpers.

Flop comes JJ6 - Rainbow.

What's my play here?

[Unarmed]

It all depends on whether or not your opponents are more likely to call your bet with an underpair or bet it themselves if checked to.

Stack sizes are awkward but I like a bet of 300 or C/R all-in. The C/R I like if they'll bet their underpair because:

1) It pot commits them where an underpair wouldn't likely call an open push
2) A check by you is consistent with the way many would play a whiffed AK here

[curtains]

I would avoid getting fancy on this flop and just bet. You might be beaten, but you should get plenty of weak calls at a loose table.

[Scuba Chuck]

Well, this is very easy for me. I PUSH.

Out of curiosity, how often do you bet out if an Ace hits the flop? Do you always check fold if an ace hits when you're holding KK?

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I would avoid getting fancy on this flop and just bet. You might be beaten, but you should get plenty of weak calls at a loose table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think his preflop play is fancy? Could you explain. He raised the bets from 30 to 200. This seems like a pretty serious bet to me - nothing fancy.

Furthermore, who calls these bets? IMO, it's pocket pairs, and Ax. Unless someone is sitting on a lucky 66, you have the best hand here.

[curtains]

I said flop play! I was referring to Unarmed who said bet to 300 or check raise. I'd generally just bet here.

[Unarmed]

I am Mr. Fancypants, not OP. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Scuba Chuck]

Well, then, very good advice. Do you see why?

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, then, very good advice. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't, tell me tell me!!!

BTW checking is also fun when the action goes check, bet, all-in, all-in /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Cleveland Guy]

[ QUOTE ]

Furthermore, who calls these bets? IMO, it's pocket pairs, and Ax. Unless someone is sitting on a lucky 66, you have the best hand here.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way this table was calling raises pre-flop I couldn't rule out any 2 broadway containing a J - in that case I'm way behind.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, who calls these bets? IMO, it's pocket pairs, and Ax. Unless someone is sitting on a lucky 66, you have the best hand here.


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The way this table was calling raises pre-flop I couldn't rule out any 2 broadway containing a J - in that case I'm way behind.


[/ QUOTE ]

Then your job is to pay him off then. That's what makes poker so mysterious, is the incomplete information. The flip side of your question is, if you check or fold, what if they don't have a J? Which probability do you want to play? It's a simple as that, IMO. It's far too weak-tight to just assume our villain always has the J, when two Js hit the flop. Furthermore, if villain does have a J, you still have two outs, it's not completely dead for you.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Then your job is to pay him off then. That's what makes poker so mysterious, is the incomplete information. The flip side of your question is, if you check or fold, what if they don't have a J? Which probability do you want to play? It's a simple as that, IMO. It's far too weak-tight to just assume our villain always has the J, when two Js hit the flop. Furthermore, if villain does have a J, you still have two outs, it's not completely dead for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol.

Scuba, Scuba, Scuba...yeah, I can see you're lost postflop.

Okay, let's review. 3 people called, not one. This is a huge problem because they don't all have Ax. On the other hand, if they are behind now they have 3 outs tops because you have what may as well be the nut 2 pair. If you're ahead you aren't getting outdrawn.

Hint: if your problem is incomplete information (it is) it is a REALLY STUPID IDEA to push here.

What you do depends on the likelihood that any given limper is liable to bet 88 here (heh), the likelihood that any given jack calls that bet (100%), and the likelihood that you are beat if you check/call and it's checkraised behind you, or check and it's checked through, or check and UTG bets/two guys coldcall, or maybe just one, or they all fold, or you bet half the pot and that same thing happens.

It's complicated, but by pushing you've managed to make extremely sure you lose the most chips possible. I don't say this lightly, but...stop posting postflop advice for a while.

[Cleveland Guy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, who calls these bets? IMO, it's pocket pairs, and Ax. Unless someone is sitting on a lucky 66, you have the best hand here.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The way this table was calling raises pre-flop I couldn't rule out any 2 broadway containing a J - in that case I'm way behind.


[/ QUOTE ]

Then your job is to pay him off then. That's what makes poker so mysterious, is the incomplete information. The flip side of your question is, if you check or fold, what if they don't have a J? Which probability do you want to play? It's a simple as that, IMO. It's far too weak-tight to just assume our villain always has the J, when two Js hit the flop. Furthermore, if villain does have a J, you still have two outs, it's not completely dead for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you like risking your whole tournament on the line - with a decent stack when you might be up against 2 outs?

I want to play the probability that gives me the best chance of winning.

Sometimes that might include folding the best hand.

[Cleveland Guy]

Hero doesn't like that many calls and then a paired board.


Hero checks, UTG goes for the $100 underbet, MP raises to $400.

1 Fold. Hero Folds.

Am I too weak tight?

[adanthar]

Hero played the hand perfectly unless MP was about 3 calibers better than anyone I've ever seen in a $10 SNG.

[Scuba Chuck]

So, IMO 88 just won here.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
It's complicated, but by pushing you've managed to make extremely sure you lose the most chips possible. I don't say this lightly, but...stop posting postflop advice for a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, your advice guarantees what then? And perhaps you're right. This forum doesn't need me. You're always right I see.

[adanthar]

One of these two most likely has nothing.

What does the other one have? Go ahead and put him on a range and then assign probabilities to it.

edit: I'm not always right, but I sure know better than to autopush an overpair into 3 people in a low buyin on a Broadway-paired board.

No, seriously. I'd be happier if you said to push AK than that. At least the pot's big enough to pure bluff at.

[Cleveland Guy]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero played the hand perfectly unless MP was about 3 calibers better than anyone I've ever seen in a $10 SNG.

[/ QUOTE ]

it was a $20 SNG on pokerroom, but I swear it was playing more like a $5.

[Cleveland Guy]

[ QUOTE ]
So, IMO 88 just won here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you have some serious flaws to your game.

To give you the rest of the hand - UTG called the raise.

Turn came T.

UTG checks, MP pushes, UTG calls.

MP had - AJ
UTG had - JTs

[Scuba Chuck]

Opened mouth. Inserted foot.

[callmedonnie]

No. I bet, and if raised I think about it. Early on I probably fold, but if I've seen the player make a few moves I may reraise. I definitely stab, as I win enough of the time.

[adanthar]

I'm honestly, genuinely not trying to be harsh here, but look at the three or four threads I've been active in today:

1)You recommend folding 88 PF because you don't get paid off enough when you flop a set;
2)You call KQo out of position to a raise and then proceed to try to bet everyone out of the pot when you 'hit' (I put that in quotes for a reason), shutting down when you get called by the table clown;
3)This hand, where your reasoning seems to be 'I have KK so I push';
3.5)A post in this thread and in another one, where you're lost on how to play KK with an A on the flop and 3 or 4 people (this one's REALLY easy; you don't).

Your postflop play, particularly, just seems like you're lost. I don't presume to be a great poker player, but I know approximately what to do and when to do it and in these four hands you're 0 for 4.

There is something off about your play in each of these and it's not as simple as weak/tight syndrome.

[Scuba Chuck]

<font color="blue"> Adanthar, look, I deserve some ribbing here in this thread. I clearly mispoke. With regards to the rest of your list.... </font>

1)You recommend folding 88 PF because you don't get paid off enough when you flop a set;
<font color="blue"> I'm not done here yet, but I know that in general limping in with 88 is fine. I'm pretty sure you'll also find that I posted that I was being devil's advocate in that thread. So, in the effort to further the discussion in that thread, persecute me. That being said. I did originally post that I think folding preflop is my preference. I'm still not adverse to that opinion yet. I'm sure this will be determined by the end of the night. To be continued in that thread. FWIW, the preview to the finish is that you are right. I am interested in your (or someone else's if your done with me tonight) opinions on the straggling thoughts that are still juggling around in my head.</font>

2)You call KQo out of position to a raise and then proceed to try to bet everyone out of the pot when you 'hit' (I put that in quotes for a reason), shutting down when you get called by the table clown;
<font color="blue"> I posted this because I was interested in some of those individuals, who have asked to try and make this more of a postflop forum, what their thoughts are on this play. If I remember correctly, I thought you were one of those individuals. I'm sorry if I don't meet your standards, and thanks for turning this around on me. </font>

3)This hand, where your reasoning seems to be 'I have KK so I push';
<font color="blue"> Already admitted I made a mistake. I somehow got this hand confused with the other KK hand, where there was just one other opponent in the hand with hero. Rip me here, I deserve it. </font>

3.5)A post in this thread and in another one, where you're lost on how to play KK with an A on the flop and 3 or 4 people (this one's REALLY easy; you don't).
<font color="blue"> What the hell are you talking about? My opinion on this hand still holds. I don't even know what your opinion was. See turk's post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1983002&amp;page=3&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;vc=1) if you've forgotten what this was about. </font>

<font color="blue"> Look, I deserve a ton of ribbing here on this hand. In fact, I learned something from you in this post (besides that I am an idiot sometimes /images/graemlins/blush.gif). With regard to the 88 post, there's more to be discussed - but yes, I do agree that limping is fine. Somewhere in my past it was recommended to me to limp in when in late position with a few limpers in front of me. I have always adopted that strategy. It appears, especially considering how much I have changed, that I will be changing this thought process. Still, I am anxious to continue to be devil's advocate for the moment until I get my point (and math) across for further examination (and flaming I guess /images/graemlins/confused.gif) </font>

<font color="blue"> Finally, for some reason, you seem to have an axe to pick with me today. Why do you rub the KQo hand in my face? Why is it I'm getting blasted for the other KK hand? Would you rather I just stop posting here? Where are you going with all of this? </font>

Regards, Scuba

[citanul]

hey, haven't read the whole thread yet, but here's my instant thoughts from the first gleam of your post, and i haven't even really digested your whole post either:

you said the table was "very loose." around 200 is my standard raise with KK there at a standard table. your table doesn't seem like it was loose and wild/aggressive, just that they are loose loose loose. with that in mind, i'd raise a bit more than 200. it all depends on how crazy loose the table had been, and if i think there's a couple of real chooks in the hand already.

you didn't mention the limits at which this hand was played, but it's possible the most recommendable play was to push preflop.

citanul

[adanthar]

OK, point by point:

I won't respond to the 88 thread for a while just because math isn't my strong point (I get it when it's explained but I don't try to do the equations myself except by eyeballing them.) I know limping's good and I know calling a small raise from behind is fine. I probably fold to a big one. That's about all I can say about that hand for another ten posts or so.

The KQ thread is a weird one - it's a marginal hand that I'd fold but really just brought up the PF thing because of the 88 thread, but then you screwed up...call it one and a half streets postflop, too. Combine your first few posts in this thread with it, and you should get why I went off on you. If you just didn't realize there were 3 people in, that's cool. But then I don't get why you said that after a bet and a raise on a JJ6 board, 88 won...eh, whatever.

I got one of the KK on an A board posts from earlier in this thread, and the other from the 88 thread. Here they are:

[ QUOTE ]
Do you always check fold if an ace hits when you're holding KK?

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
it's the easiest preflop hand to play post flop, IMO...A lot easier than KK, with an A-flop, and 4 along for the ride.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I got from those two posts is that that's a tricky hand for you to play with multiple opponents at your buyin. It shouldn't be (you check once and then you fold). Maybe I misinterpreted the second one and read something into it I shouldn't have, though?

---
I'm not really picking on you. The thing is that you're a regular and you post more advice than most people in addition to asking questions. I think advice ought to be held to a higher standard (check out the AA 1st hand UTG multitable thread; I'm getting killed over there right now for posting a halfassed suggestion while bored and I probably deserve it) and I'll call out anybody that I think is consistently wrong on it.

Asking questions is good. Telling someone to push KK on a JJ6 board into 3 people is bad (so is telling him to push into one person, in case you're wondering. Do you want 88 to fold *that* badly?), even thinking of playing KK on an A high board with 3 others in is bad, and that 88 thread is bad, too, because the *implication* of your advice is that you, personally, don't or haven't gotten paid enough when you do hit a set. That in turn means you're overbetting or not betting enough when you hit, so it's another postflop leak. Again, I could be reading too much into this, but those are my impressions right now.

So anyway, post some more postflop questions /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Cleveland Guy]

[ QUOTE ]
hey, haven't read the whole thread yet, but here's my instant thoughts from the first gleam of your post, and i haven't even really digested your whole post either:

you said the table was "very loose." around 200 is my standard raise with KK there at a standard table. your table doesn't seem like it was loose and wild/aggressive, just that they are loose loose loose. with that in mind, i'd raise a bit more than 200. it all depends on how crazy loose the table had been, and if i think there's a couple of real chooks in the hand already.

you didn't mention the limits at which this hand was played, but it's possible the most recommendable play was to push preflop.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Citanul - thanks for the advice.

Just to clarify, we are only 6 hands in - so no reads are real real strong yet, but this was the first hand of the 6 that was limped around.

I would say that at level 1 200 is normally a bit bigger than my standard raise here. I would say 150 is closer to it with that many limpers, maybe just 100 or 120 with less limpers.

In hindsight I do agree - if the table was this crazy loose, a bigger raise might have done the trick to thin the field better.

Might not have changed the results much, but might have been a better play at a loose table.

Maybe even the suspecious all in bet?

[Cleveland Guy]

[ QUOTE ]
hey, haven't read the whole thread yet, but here's my instant thoughts from the first gleam of your post, and i haven't even really digested your whole post either:

you said the table was "very loose." around 200 is my standard raise with KK there at a standard table. your table doesn't seem like it was loose and wild/aggressive, just that they are loose loose loose. with that in mind, i'd raise a bit more than 200. it all depends on how crazy loose the table had been, and if i think there's a couple of real chooks in the hand already.

you didn't mention the limits at which this hand was played, but it's possible the most recommendable play was to push preflop.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Citanul - thanks for the advice.

Just to clarify, we are only 6 hands in - so no reads are real real strong yet, but this was the first hand of the 6 that was limped around.

I would say that at level 1 200 is normally a bit bigger than my standard raise here. I would say 150 is closer to it with that many limpers, maybe just 100 or 120 with less limpers.

In hindsight I do agree - if the table was this crazy loose, a bigger raise might have done the trick to thin the field better.

Might not have changed the results much, but might have been a better play at a loose table.

Maybe even the suspecious all in bet pre-flop?

[john_]

[ QUOTE ]
Just to clarify, we are only 6 hands in - so no reads are real real strong yet, but this was the first hand of the 6 that was limped around.

I would say that at level 1 200 is normally a bit bigger than my standard raise here. I would say 150 is closer to it with that many limpers, maybe just 100 or 120 with less limpers.

In hindsight I do agree - if the table was this crazy loose, a bigger raise might have done the trick to thin the field better.

Might not have changed the results much, but might have been a better play at a loose table.

Maybe even the suspecious all in bet pre-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be so results oriented. The 200 chip raise was fine. You may see three callers as bad but its going to be a lot easier and more correct to lay your hand down to a bad flop. (Namely: Axx, QQx, JJx, TTx)

Also q,j &amp; t high flops will probably all pay you off with TPGK. So yeah, this particular hand it cost you 200 chips...I wouldn't worry about it.

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
What you do depends on the likelihood that any given limper is liable to bet 88 here (heh), the likelihood that any given jack calls that bet (100%), and the likelihood that you are beat if you check/call and it's checkraised behind you, or check and it's checked through, or check and UTG bets/two guys coldcall, or maybe just one, or they all fold, or you bet half the pot and that same thing happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your advice for this hand? OP didn't say what buyin and site this was, but in a Party $11 or $20 this is should be played much differently than in a Party $55 or $109. Pushing on this flop in a Party $11-22 can be OK IMO. The reason is that you WILL get called by hands that you beat (you can expect calls from AK, TT-77). With a 200 chip raise preflop on level 1 and a JJ6 board, pushing here is +$EV at these levels. It may not be the best play, but it is not clearly wrong as you've indicated IMO. In fact, this is a good board on these low-level tables to push post-flop as it increases the likelihood of getting called by any PP (vs. a board with an A or K or even two overs to their PP rather than one over twice). The times that you run against a J vs. the times you get called by a lower PP (or two) here make this +$EV at the right buy-in level. At these low tables, the fish will drop Jx preflop for a 200 chip raise, but they will NOT fold a PP for 25% of their stack preflop.

Yes, at a higher buy-in level the chance of being called by a worse hand is MUCH lower, and a push on the flop is not the right play (you get called only when beat). Buyin is important here.

[ QUOTE ]
It's complicated, but by pushing you've managed to make extremely sure you lose the most chips possible. I don't say this lightly, but...stop posting postflop advice for a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would hate to see Scuba stop posting (or decrease his frequency of posts) in this forum as he has created posts that have generated more good SnG discussion and commentary than any other poster in the past few months. His posts are well thought-out even if his thoughts can be challenged, and he is generally very good at provoking issues/strategy discussions.