To Those Who Beat this Game for 2.5BB+/100...

[x2ski]

To those who beat this game for 2.5BB+/100... What do you believe is the single most important factor to your success?

Although I don't like polls ('cause many of the results on 2+2 only depress me lol), I'm creating one below with some examples just to get some discussion going. Please note: Since I don't know what leads to such high numbers, some or all of my suggestions may be completely moronic... that's what the reply link is for.

Since I currently cannot seem to find areas to improve my game, but am also not crushing $3/$6 over 200,000+ hands, I plan to take the day off to reflect, and hopefully dig deeper into the useful responses to the post. This is not a whining post at all, 'cause I am very satisfied with my earn... Just looking to improve /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Requirement: 2.5BB+/100 must be over the course of at least 100,000 hands! (and preferably online while multitabling) Limit Hold 'em only, and small stakes ($2/$4) or greater preferred.

[PotatoStew]

You left out the most obvious choice: Dumb luck. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[stoxtrader]

I think most who reply will face what i did - it's a compilation of the different reasons you mentioned.

1) read every strategy post in mid-high and small stakes and reply when you can

2) study your pokertracker and spend time understanding your numbers - what a great tool that is.

3) use/learn table selection, but understand there is an opportunity cost in time lost being too particular about the tables

4) understand odds and theory cold.

5) understand post-flop play in relation to your read on your opponent. and try to have a read most of the time.

[J.R.]

adaptability and flexibility

[stinkypete]

other: i don't do any of those things particularly well.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
1) read every strategy post in mid-high and small stakes and reply when you can

[/ QUOTE ]

How much time would you say you spend per day doing this, while all the "fun" topics are tempting you to waste time in the General and Internet forums? (I avoid OOT completely, probably for the better)

[ QUOTE ]
2) study your pokertracker and spend time understanding your numbers - what a great tool that is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never been good at this... I normally just use it for player notes and to track my progress. Searching for hands that I know are worth reviewing is a skill I never developed. Any suggestions?


[ QUOTE ]
3) use/learn table selection, but understand there is an opportunity cost in time lost being too particular about the tables

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[ QUOTE ]
4) understand odds and theory cold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is my main weakness, which is why it was the first poll response. It's embarassing for me to say this, but I've never spent time on this stuff.

I basically figured out while I was playing micros that if I flop an OESD or 4-flush, see the river. I don't chase gut shots, and if I miss the flop with my AK, I will fold the turn unimproved if my opponents are playing back at me and I don't have other draws (i.e. gutshot/backdoor flush).

I have never ever really concentrated on calculating my outs/odds in a hand, save for my general strategies above. This is probably a huge problem.

[ QUOTE ]
5) understand post-flop play in relation to your read on your opponent. and try to have a read most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the most recent thing I have worked on, and I am glad that I did.

[Reef]

crap, I thought this included NL. When I 4-table limit, I'm not quite at 2.5BB/100.

I think at 2/4, you can just play ABC poker and be successful.

[J.R.]

eamil hands to yourself as you paly for later review

evaluate your positon stats, and as your db grows isolate stuff like steals and defenses and stuff like wtsd and bets after pfring

after a bad session sort your hands by biggest losses and review them..seeing oppoents suck will be re-assusring, and seeing you overplay will be insturctive

read posts and try to reply with a mathematical analysis

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
crap, I thought this included NL. When I 4-table limit, I'm not quite at 2.5BB/100.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a problem... I highly respect your opinion regardless.

[ QUOTE ]
I think at 2/4, you can just play ABC poker and be successful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Successful meaning 2.5BB+/100?

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
read posts and try to reply with a mathematical analysis

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did you learn how to incorporate mathematical analysis? 2+2? Any other good books, websites etc? I'm looking at pokersavvy.com's "Understanding Odds (http://pokersavvy.com/learnholdem/understandingodds.html)" right now.

I did well in college statistics, but that was 8 years ago, so it is long forgotten.

[xpander]

I voted without having a 2.5 BB/100 WR at 2/4 (it was in the neighborhood of 2 BB/100, but I have taken a lot of time off to study lately), but I'm a firm believer that learning the game is by far the best way to pump your WR. Making the most +EV move every play is, atleast to me, has greater importance (and profit) than table selection, seat selection, and even hand-reading abilities combined.

[J.R.]

raed old GOT, Homer and 1800Gambler posts in particular, espeically homer threads he started in ss recent archives. search for "-Re:" in the keyword box and poster homer in small stakes

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a firm believer that learning the game is by far the best way to pump your WR. Making the most +EV move every play is, at least to me, has greater importance (and profit) than table selection, seat selection, and even hand-reading abilities combined.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so how did you learn what will be the most +EV play every time? Certainly not just from playing, 'cause I play A LOT.

The only books I haven't read that I know I should are GT&OT and HPFAP. Is there a secret chart somewhere that needs memorization?

[Predator314]

I chose other, because it's a combination of a lot of those factors you listed. I see you've been playing $3/6 lately. I've actually sit at a couple tables with you, but really can't comment on your play because all I remember is your name, not your play.

The $3/6 level has tightened up considerable over the past few months. So I think table selection is key to finding the "juicier" games.

Though the tables have tightened up, that doesn't necessarily make them better. Most of the tighter players are weak and can be run over. I suggest getting some short handed experience and reading the HUSH forums to learn how to deal with the tighter tables where many hands are heads up.

I think the single most important trait would be adaptation. You have to be able to adapt to your surroundings. You can't play the exact same way at every table and expect to be more than a marginal winner. Sometimes you have to play a little looser, sometimes you need to tighten up. It all depends on what the table conditions call for.

I don't think datamining is really necessary at $3/6 although it won't hurt.

I've played over 100,000 hands at the $3/6 level and have maintained around a 2.80 BB/100 win rate. I think adaptation has helped me more than antyhing.

Hope this helps.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
raed old GOT, Homer and 1800Gambler posts in particular, espeically homer threads he started in ss recent archives. search for "-Re:" in the keyword box and poster homer in small stakes



[/ QUOTE ]

Will do... thanks

[Jdanz]

table selection, it'll get more and more important as you move up in stakes. If someone is playing correctly preflop there is only so much you can make off them. Unless they're super weak tight you're better off playing with people who play way too loose and allright postflop, and just letting the better hand vs worse hand take care of itself.

Poker is a zero sum game, you can only make what your opponents lose, their mistakes are WAAAAAY more important then your brilliant plays (assuming you don't make any terrible mistakes).

The OP is asking what makes the jump, and it's not playing brilliant poker, it's playing really solidly vs bad players.

Playing Solid (which involved a lot of things, but seems like the OP has some idea) > Table selection > everything else.

-JDanz

[stillbr]

The vast vast majority of 2+2ers that claim a 2.5+ WR do not accually have it, or do not have a big enough sample size to claim 2.5+ is accurate.

[MEbenhoe]

In many games >20 VPIP is not playing loose preflop, its playing good.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
The vast vast majority of 2+2ers that claim a 2.5+ WR do not accually have it, or do not have a big enough sample size to claim 2.5+ is accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that... very helpful.

[Go Blue]

[ QUOTE ]
2) study your pokertracker and spend time understanding your numbers - what a great tool that is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Speaking of this, I just ordered PT and imported my previous hand histories. I obviously understand how useful this is, however, I would like to get some advice on how to correctly look at the info, what to look at, and what steps to take to improve. Any help here is greatly appreciated.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
In many games >20 VPIP is not playing loose preflop, its playing good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know dude... I was thinking about that after I posted this. I was considering calling it "playing looser", instead of "loose", but decided to leave it.

From what I understand, a profitable VPIP >20 is attained in higher limits ($15/$30+), no?

At $3/$6, I can't even find more hands to play to get mine to 15, let alone 20 lol.

[Predator314]

http://www.pokertrackerguide.com/

[Bluffoon]

You have to be proficient in ALL aspects of the game. If you are lacking in any area, or if your skills and your game are not balanced, you will not achieve your full potential.

I approached, and continue to approach it like this.... I pick an aspect of the game, lets say, position, and I rate my ability to evaluate and use position to my advantage over a period of time. When I am satisfied that I am doing what I can in this area I pick another, maybe semi-bluffing and I evaluate and work on that part of my game. THis is a continual process so my game is evolving and getting stronger all the time. Periodically I revisit topics to see if I can improve further. You have to love the process. I'd almost rather study and learn than play.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.pokertrackerguide.com/

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it worth it man? I assume so... Thanks for the link!

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to be proficient in ALL aspects of the game. If you are lacking in any area, or if your skills and your game are not balanced, you will not achieve your full potential.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree

[ QUOTE ]
I approached, and continue to approach it like this.... I pick an aspect of the game, lets say, position, and I rate my ability to evaluate and use position to my advantage over a period of time. When I am satisfied that I am doing what I can in this area I pick another, maybe semi-bluffing and I evaluate and work on that part of my game. THis is a continual process so my game is evolving and getting stronger all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again I agree... I guess I'm just looking for that next area to work on.

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have to be proficient in ALL aspects of the game. If you are lacking in any area, or if your skills and your game are not balanced, you will not achieve your full potential.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree

[ QUOTE ]
I approached, and continue to approach it like this.... I pick an aspect of the game, lets say, position, and I rate my ability to evaluate and use position to my advantage over a period of time. When I am satisfied that I am doing what I can in this area I pick another, maybe semi-bluffing and I evaluate and work on that part of my game. THis is a continual process so my game is evolving and getting stronger all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again I agree... I guess I'm just looking for that next area to work on.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't matter. Just pick one and work on it and then pick another and so on....

[xpander]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm a firm believer that learning the game is by far the best way to pump your WR. Making the most +EV move every play is, at least to me, has greater importance (and profit) than table selection, seat selection, and even hand-reading abilities combined.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so how did you learn what will be the most +EV play every time? Certainly not just from playing, 'cause I play A LOT.

The only books I haven't read that I know I should are GT&OT and HPFAP. Is there a secret chart somewhere that needs memorization?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't always make the most +EV move. That would take a lot of practice. I spend more time studying hands, reading these boards, and keeping poker literature (SSHE, HFPAP, TOP) fresh in my mind, than I do playing. I feel that I gain more from this than playing a lot of hands. I can usually study my tough hands, figure out what the best move is and why. The more I do this, the quicker I become, and the more I approach perfect play. Or so I'm hoping. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

I have some interesting thoughts on a parallel between this idea and learning chess, but I'll post that later.

[skp]

All good tips. But lots of guys who make less than 2.5bb/100 also do all of this.

If I had to single out the one thing that separates the 2.5bb+ from those that aren't quite there, it would be that the guys in the former group don't just have the bet/raise button taped down. They make poker decisions which includes checking their Ak on the turn when warranted, properly checkcalling something like top pair in a small pot, knowing when to give up on a bluff etc.

Most guys just keep betting every opportunity they get after having raised preflop in a short field. They lose more when behind and often win less when ahead ie. they fail to induce bluffs and curiosity river calls.

It's a simplistic difference but IMO, a big one.

That postflop agggression rating on PT is a boon. Players see 1.8 or whatever for themselves and figure they have to get more aggressive to increase the rating. I am of the view that most guys on PP are decidedly too aggressive in a counterproductive way.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
All good tips. But lots of guys who make less than 2.5bb/100 also do all of this.

If I had to single out the one thing that separates the 2.5bb+ from those that aren't quite there, it would be that the guys in the former group don't just have the bet/raise button taped down. They make poker decisions which includes checking their Ak on the turn when warranted, properly checkcalling something like top pair in a small pot, knowing when to give up on a bluff etc.

Most guys just keep betting every opportunity they get after having raised preflop in a short field. They lose more when behind and often win less when ahead ie. they fail to induce bluffs and curiosity river calls.

It's a simplistic difference but IMO, a big one.

That postflop agggression rating on PT is a boon. Players see 1.8 or whatever for themselves and figure they have to get more aggressive to increase the rating. I am of the view that most guys on PP are decidedly too aggressive in a counterproductive way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good points (I think, since I am here to learn /images/graemlins/cool.gif)

[Alobar]

sadly my winrate is only 2.46bb/100 so I cant take part in this poll. But for future reference you might want to make an option that says "I just want to see the results" otherwise your poll is going to be tainted by all the rif raff like myself who dont have the winrate but want to see the results

[pokerjo22]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't chase gut shots

[/ QUOTE ]


That in itself is probably a leak. A gutshot is, what, 11:1 ish? There are frequently times when thats good enough to take one off on the flop, particulary when you can factor in implied odds.

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
crap, I thought this included NL. When I 4-table limit, I'm not quite at 2.5BB/100.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a problem... I highly respect your opinion regardless.

[ QUOTE ]
I think at 2/4, you can just play ABC poker and be successful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Successful meaning 2.5BB+/100?

[/ QUOTE ]

ABC/fundamentals are just one part of the 'complete package' player. Table selection and hand reading ability is also very big.

I'm sure I could do 2.5BB/100 (limit) if I only played 1 or 2 tables. But I'm willing to sacrifice by multitabling. ABC becomes a bigger factor when doing this, as you can't pay as close attention to each player and hand played. I'm working on fixing missed river value bets, then I'll be at 2.5 soon enough.

Maybe I'm just better at NL (or I have much better table selection here), but I'm kicking it at 9BB/100 over the last 30k hands of 6max (.50 big blind). I also 4 table this as well. I rely heavily on PT. But again, I always go back to ABC poker. If there are maniacs, I will focus my attention on them.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]

That postflop agggression rating on PT is a boon. Players see 1.8 or whatever for themselves and figure they have to get more aggressive to increase the rating. I am of the view that most guys on PP are decidedly too aggressive in a counterproductive way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huge huge huge, you hit the nail on the head IMHO.

I'm always baffled when people in HU/SH forum post their aggression factor stats and show stuff in the 3's or higher. I know the only days I'm above 2 on most streets is when I'm running hot or playing badly and lifetime my turn and river agg factors are around 1.8 a piece (give or take a tenth or two..i'm not just picking 1.8 cuz you said it).

[x2ski]

Dude, quit teasing me and respond already. I promise I won't send my goons after you.

Although if I chose to, you'd better run 'cause I've got a hundred of the little guys /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Schneids]

FWIW beating a $2/4 game for 2.5BB or higher probably requires drastically different approach (ie more ABC, less trickiness, less well-placed semibluffs) than 2.5BB in $15/30 (being able to respond to more aggression and knowing who to pay off against), and 2.5BB/100 in $100/200 likewise requires an even different subset of skills (definitely more emphasis on being awesome short handed AND being able to hand read well to save bets and make laydowns and induce incorrect folds with bluffs) than the $15/30 2.5BB winner. So, I think this poll would show different 'correct' responses depending on the limit being played.

(EDIT: also an increased importance should be placed on game selection as one goes higher and higher in limits).

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That postflop agggression rating on PT is a boon. Players see 1.8 or whatever for themselves and figure they have to get more aggressive to increase the rating. I am of the view that most guys on PP are decidedly too aggressive in a counterproductive way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huge huge huge, you hit the nail on the head IMHO.

I'm always baffled when people in HU/SH forum post their aggression factor stats and show stuff in the 3's or higher. I know the only days I'm above 2 on most streets is when I'm running hot or playing badly and lifetime my turn and river agg factors are around 1.8 a piece (give or take a tenth or two..i'm not just picking 1.8 cuz you said it).

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn, I guess I gotta work on that...

Since 1/1/05 and 86,638 hands my total AF (excluding preflop) is 2.84, with turn and river aggression being 2.91 and 2.05, respectively. Flop aggression is a delicious 3.20! This is all at 10-handed games /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
sadly my winrate is only 2.46bb/100...

[/ QUOTE ]
If you aren't joking this is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on this forum.

If you are joking, then good one.

I am disturbed by the excessive focus on 2+2 on "win rate," which is actually being misused as a term most of the time. Your "win rate" is your theoretical expectation, which would be an estimate and never precisely knowable.

The BB/100 stat in PokerTracker is not your winrate, it's your results, which I really don't find particularly interesting or useful other than from a probability/statistical standpoint.

peter_rus had a stats post where he discussed two discrete 100,000 hand samples from the Party $5/10 6max game. In the earlier sample his BB/100 stat was about 1 BB higher than in his latter sample, even though his play had improved quite a bit.

[J.R.]

peter (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=holdem&Number=1241449&Foru m=All_Forums&Words=%2B100&Searchpage=0&Limit=2500& Main=1231582&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=10605& daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&older type=&bodyprev=#Post1241449)

[bdk3clash]

Thanks. From the post:

[ QUOTE ]
I beat the game for a bit over 3BB/100 for over 200K.

First 100K were beaten near 3.75BB/100 so i'm degradate a bit

[/ QUOTE ]
So that means his 2nd 100,000 hands he won ~2.25 BB/100 after winning ~3.75 BB/100 over the first 100,000 hands.

Put that in your results-oriented pipe and smoke it.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
I am disturbed by the excessive focus on 2+2 on "win rate," which is actually being misused as a term most of the time. Your "win rate" is your theoretical expectation, which would be an estimate and never precisely knowable.

The BB/100 stat in PokerTracker is not your winrate, it's your results, which I really don't find particularly interesting or useful other than from a probability/statistical standpoint.

peter_rus had a stats post where he discussed two discrete 100,000 hand samples from the Party $5/10 6max game. In the earlier sample his BB/100 stat was about 1 BB higher than in his latter sample, even though his play had improved quite a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, that makes sense... Change the request to:

"To Those Who Consider Themselves to be Beating The Game Solidly over the Course of 100,000+ Hands..."

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]


If you are joking, then good one.


[/ QUOTE ]

*pats himself on the back* /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks. From the post:

[ QUOTE ]
I beat the game for a bit over 3BB/100 for over 200K.

First 100K were beaten near 3.75BB/100 so i'm degradate a bit

[/ QUOTE ]
So that means his 2nd 100,000 hands he won ~2.25 BB/100 after winning ~3.75 BB/100 over the first 100,000 hands.

Put that in your results-oriented pipe and smoke it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen... that is a 1.5BB/100 difference, which is simply huge.

Per that post (reading it now [very long]), perhaps 400,000 hands is a better indicator?

Regardless, all I'm really asking for is what the main factors are that set expert play apart from the merely average.

Thanks for putting things in perspective though bdk

[skp]

I picked 1.8 because that's what I am at...although I have noticed it creeping up as of late...it's time for me get a little less aggressive...

[x2ski]

I mean the hours played during the day.

I tend to play between noon and 9pm during the weekdays at $3/$6 on party. Does this hurt my win-rate, since recreational players are scarce before the evenings? If so, how significant is the difference?

Also, I rarely play on weekends, so if I changed my schedule to 6pm-2am on weekdays and/or more weekend play would I see a benefit?

I figure that playing during peak hours only once in a while will increase your variance. If the majority of play is during the weekdays where most of your earn comes from outplaying solid players postflop, I assume the swings would be less, but the earn less as well... Compared to rare play at peak hours (nights/weekends) would result in more variance/more earn, but a longer period of time to average out. So it's best to dedicate play to peak hours only, correct?

[Moozh]

In my experience, the difference between regular work hours and evening hours is huge. Potentially about 2bb per average pot increase. The weekends have always been significantly more profitable than the week days for me.

As for the winrate, I have a decent one, but not 2.5. Now, I play far from perfect, but still... I'm guessing 2.5 is possible, but very very difficult to achieve.

[James282]

I selected Other, and I will elaborate by saying, it's mostly discipline and adjusting more quickly than my opponents. To truly thinking opponents, there are very few "bad" games. In some games, like the small stakes mid stakes party games, simplly playing well and extracting value will put you in very good position to achieve this winrate without adjusting very much at all. In those cases, you are always a step ahead of your opponents simply due to your preflop strategy and knowledge of postflop odds.

As I've progressed into the higher limits, I've found myself able to maintain my winrate because I am a better adjuster than my opponents. Especially in games like 50-100 HU, I am able to counter my opponents default strategy effectively within 20 hands or so, and unless they switch gears, it's going to be short and sweet. In bigger ring games, you need to pay attention to who will fire the last barrel, who checks behind mediocre holdings, who raises the turn for a free showdown, etc. This is because the tight players in these games often have a relatively predictable preflop strategy that is exploitable if they don't adjust postflop.

Of course all of this assumes a basic foundation of excellent default preflop and postflop strategies, which can take a while to develop(although 200k hands is a pretty huge amount of time to learn this). And I'd also be a bit suspicious with how many people answered this poll, as some of the best players I know aren't even over 2.5 bb/100...then again I really have no concept of how easy this woudl be at 5/10 and below.
-James

[x2ski]

During the weekdays at $3/$6 I play at tables with average pot sizes of $35-$40 (usually closer to $35, so roughly 6BB), but I don't practice strict table selection... If there is just one poor player at the table I'll stay, but as soon as he leaves I'm outtie.

Tables with 3 or more bad players are so rare it's almost scary when that happens lol.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
I selected Other, and I will elaborate by saying, it's mostly discipline and adjusting more quickly than my opponents. To truly thinking opponents, there are very few "bad" games. In some games, like the small stakes mid stakes party games, simplly playing well and extracting value will put you in very good position to achieve this winrate without adjusting very much at all. In those cases, you are always a step ahead of your opponents simply due to your preflop strategy and knowledge of postflop odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I definitely have to work on this.

[ QUOTE ]
As I've progressed into the higher limits, I've found myself able to maintain my winrate because I am a better adjuster than my opponents. Especially in games like 50-100 HU, I am able to counter my opponents default strategy effectively within 20 hands or so, and unless they switch gears, it's going to be short and sweet. In bigger ring games, you need to pay attention to who will fire the last barrel, who checks behind mediocre holdings, who raises the turn for a free showdown, etc. This is because the tight players in these games often have a relatively predictable preflop strategy that is exploitable if they don't adjust postflop...

...this assumes a basic foundation of excellent default preflop and postflop strategies, which can take a while to develop(although 200k hands is a pretty huge amount of time to learn this).

[/ QUOTE ]

When you say postflop strategies, are you referring to playing the correct odds, strategic semi-bluffing/pure-bluffing, value-betting, more of one than the other, or am I completely missing the definition of post-flop strategy?

Thanks

[James282]

All of those things are included. I mean, you've played 200,000 hands and you don't even know the basic odds yet? yowza!
-James

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
All of those things are included. I mean, you've played 200,000 hands and you don't even know the basic odds yet? yowza!
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I know dude, I know. I've gotten by on charm alone.

All I've really bothered learning are rough odds:

3:1 OESD to hit on turn, 5:1 on river
2:1 4-flush on turn, 4:1 on river
4:1 for 2-overcards to hit pair on turn, 7:1 on river
The rest I have conveniently forgotten.

Disclaimer: the odds above are in no way accurate, so don't use them ('cause I don't either)

So the consensus is probably that I learn to count outs and calculate my pot odds/implied odds... Should I study the hell out of that section of SSH, or are there better places to look and learn? What about this Poki's Poker Academy thing? Seems like time wasted that could be used playing seat-of-your-pants $3/$6 on party /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[party36master]

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to play between noon and 9pm during the weekdays at $3/$6 on party.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure I played you after midnight a couple of days this week.
Anyway, if I've got you right, I've got 400 hands against you.
I don't have 2.5 BB/100 results, but I would look at if you're stealing blinds enough. Also, look at whether you are folding the river too much.

[Justin A]

I put other, because I think a lot of it has to do with psychology. I've talked to a lot of winning players, and it seems to me that the thing that separates the big winners from the players that just do "ok", is the ability to play their A game. What I mean is that the guys who are consistently putting up big results just don't tilt. I'm not talking about the kind of tilt that makes you play downright stupid, but the kind that just keeps you from making your best decisions day in and day out. The big winners are the types who have the discipline to shut down all of their tables as soon as they make one bad play, which tells them they're off their game. They're the guys who get a bad beat put on them and don't blink an eye, and put the results behind them. Moving on to the next hand after getting a bad beat is very important.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I tend to play between noon and 9pm during the weekdays at $3/$6 on party.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure I played you after midnight a couple of days this week.
Anyway, if I've got you right, I've got 400 hands against you.
I don't have 2.5 BB/100 results, but I would look at if you're stealing blinds enough. Also, look at whether you are folding the river too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I played until 2/3am twice last week. I'm trying to make up hands since I was on vacation earlier this month.

[x2ski]

[ QUOTE ]
I put other, because I think a lot of it has to do with psychology. I've talked to a lot of winning players, and it seems to me that the thing that separates the big winners from the players that just do "ok", is the ability to play their A game. What I mean is that the guys who are consistently putting up big results just don't tilt. I'm not talking about the kind of tilt that makes you play downright stupid, but the kind that just keeps you from making your best decisions day in and day out. The big winners are the types who have the discipline to shut down all of their tables as soon as they make one bad play, which tells them they're off their game. They're the guys who get a bad beat put on them and don't blink an eye, and put the results behind them. Moving on to the next hand after getting a bad beat is very important.

[/ QUOTE ]

word...

I know I've come along way in that department, but there is always room for improvement.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
sadly my winrate is only 2.46bb/100...

[/ QUOTE ]
If you aren't joking this is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on this forum.

If you are joking, then good one.

I am disturbed by the excessive focus on 2+2 on "win rate," which is actually being misused as a term most of the time. Your "win rate" is your theoretical expectation, which would be an estimate and never precisely knowable.

The BB/100 stat in PokerTracker is not your winrate, it's your results, which I really don't find particularly interesting or useful other than from a probability/statistical standpoint.

peter_rus had a stats post where he discussed two discrete 100,000 hand samples from the Party $5/10 6max game. In the earlier sample his BB/100 stat was about 1 BB higher than in his latter sample, even though his play had improved quite a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've been making some good posts lately.

[admiralfluff]

I see you arouns a bit, and in all honesty, I was quite surprised to see that you are a poster here. I have 188 hands on you, for which you are 8.5/3.4. I know this is a small sample, but I think it indicates you are too weak tight preflop. I seem to recall, (stats verify), that you are reasonably aggressive post flop. I feel that you can get away with playing a lot more hands than people here tend to. (I have trouble keeping my VPIP below 21). I am definitely in your target audience of people who are beating the 3/6 game. I 2-table, and pay attention to basically every play, take extensive notes...

If you can 8 table and make more than 3/4 BB/100, which many here can easily do, than you make more than me. I can't imagine how someone would beat the game for +2.5 BB/100 8-tabling.

Anyways, unless I caught you on an exceptionally bad run of cards, you are playing way too tight. Play using the SSHE guidlines, use PT to keep track of your stats, don't waste your time on crappy tables, and I am of the belief that position on 1 fish on a table is better than out of position on 3. Maybe that's just me though.

Best of luck.

[ACW]

Other : Poor opponents.

[odellthurman]

"During the weekdays at $3/$6 I play at tables with average pot sizes of $35-$40 (usually closer to $35, so roughly 6BB), but I don't practice strict table selection... If there is just one poor player at the table I'll stay, but as soon as he leaves I'm outtie.

Tables with 3 or more bad players are so rare it's almost scary when that happens lol."

My answer to your poll was seat selection. Looking at the above post, you might want to consider whether you are focused simply on finding a bad player, or on getting position on a bad player(s) and on good players. I think position relative to good and bad player(s) is much more important than average pot size.

[flub]

You don't have HEPFAP?!?! That's criminal. The book doesn't cost money it makes money.

-flub

[einbert]

I play shorthanded and I think the single most important skill I use regularly is handreading, which of course allows me to use the skill of knowing pot odds.

Pot odds is useless without handreading because your odds against hand X are totally different than your odds against hand Y.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
You've been making some good posts lately.

[/ QUOTE ]
blah blah blah broken clock blah blah blah twice a day blah blah blah

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW beating a $2/4 game for 2.5BB or higher probably requires drastically different approach (ie more ABC, less trickiness, less well-placed semibluffs) than 2.5BB in $15/30 (being able to respond to more aggression and knowing who to pay off against), and 2.5BB/100 in $100/200 likewise requires an even different subset of skills (definitely more emphasis on being awesome short handed AND being able to hand read well to save bets and make laydowns and induce incorrect folds with bluffs) than the $15/30 2.5BB winner. So, I think this poll would show different 'correct' responses depending on the limit being played.

(EDIT: also an increased importance should be placed on game selection as one goes higher and higher in limits).

[/ QUOTE ]

Schneids...is any of your discussion of 100/200 from other than theory? I've been gone a couple months, and when I saw that from you I was kinda shocked. Did you really try 100/200?

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
[read] old GOT, Homer and 1800Gambler posts in particular, espeically homer threads he started in ss recent archives. search for "-Re:" in the keyword box and poster homer in small stakes

[/ QUOTE ]

I just bolded the whole quote, because nothing in there should be left out. The archives are an underutilized resource here. I spent a TON of time reading old posts in there from Ray Zee's strategy posts, to Tommy Angelo, to GoT, to any number of other respected posters on here. That is probably the only reason I'm a winning player right now.

[avalanche201]

I say complete understanding of odds. Because one this will help you make correct poker decisions. But further it helps you play your hands better. The main mistake that i see in holdem is betting. This is not very suprising because there is very little literature on specifically this subject. If you know the odds then you know what to bet accordingly. IE weither to protect, weither to value bet, or slow play

[Moyer]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course all of this assumes a basic foundation of excellent default preflop and postflop strategies

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure this is a good assumtion for players at 2/4 &amp; 3/6. I know I struggle sometimes wondering what default postflop strategy should be in many situations.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course all of this assumes a basic foundation of excellent default preflop and postflop strategies

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure this is a good assumtion for players at 2/4 &amp; 3/6. I know I struggle sometimes wondering what default postflop strategy should be in many situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's probably a bad assumption. I was talking about being an above average winner in the limits that I play, which do not include 2/4 or 3/6.
-James

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]

Schneids...is any of your discussion of 100/200 from other than theory? I've been gone a couple months, and when I saw that from you I was kinda shocked. Did you really try 100/200?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I've had enough experience in it now so that I could make that statement. I'm still a n00b in the game, in the large picture, but that was what I've noticed to be true. Also varying your play == mega-important higher up.

[threeonefour]

[ QUOTE ]
Most guys just keep betting every opportunity they get after having raised preflop in a short field. They lose more when behind and often win less when ahead ie. they fail to induce bluffs and curiosity river calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am right on the cusp (2.45 BB/100 on 3/6 UB and 2.4 on 5/10 UB) and I am 100% that this is what is preventing me from being a better winner. Once you learn the power of aggression its easy for beginning players (me) to overuse it and bet down an unimproved AK against a blind that is never going to fold his 22.

another great example, I forget who, but a prolific poster recently posted about how its not all that bad that there are so many tags in the games these days because most suck post flop.

he cited an example that basically went like this:

TT open raises, Hero theebets, TT calls
flop blanks(8 High)
TT checks, Hero bets, TT raises, Hero Reraises....

TT then goes into call down mode...

for a long long time this was my standard line when I flop an overpair with TT out of position. The poster pointed out that this line basically minimizes profits when you are ahead and maximizes them when you are behind. (alternatives were betting the river or check calling the flop and check raising the turn I believe.