View Full Version : Bluff stop-and-go on the bubble
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
Button (t2660)
SB (t1040)
Hero (t2010)
UTG (t2290)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t800</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t400.
Flop: (t1800) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero is all-in.
What do y'all think of this play? Villain had min-raised my last BB and had generally been agressive preflop. The plan was to push any flop.
Jman28
03-18-2005, 08:53 PM
I for one don't like it.
It's risky, and the short stack makes the downside of the risk greeater than the upside, I think.
-Jman28
raptor517
03-18-2005, 08:55 PM
bwahahaha, cocky ilya, i like it. hes gonna be as scared of that bored as anything. especially if he doesnt have an ace with a spade. it IS risky, but it has its merits. holla
Jman28
03-18-2005, 08:59 PM
[ QUOTE ]
bwahahaha, cocky ilya, i like it. hes gonna be as scared of that bored as anything. especially if he doesnt have an ace with a spade. it IS risky, but it has its merits. holla
[/ QUOTE ]
I like the flop bet because of the flop texture, but he planned on pushing any board. I don't like the stop-n-go here preflop.
Benholio
03-18-2005, 09:04 PM
I agree with J-man on this one. Furthermore, there is a pretty decent chance that your opponent has EITHER an ace or a decent spade, either one of which will be enough to get him to call you.
Seems like Fancy Play Syndrome to me, or just trying to bluff a bad player. I make these kind of moves sometimes but I usually end up regretting them.
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with J-man on this one. Furthermore, there is a pretty decent chance that your opponent has EITHER an ace or a decent spade, either one of which will be enough to get him to call you.
[/ QUOTE ]
The board is irrelevant for evaluating the play, since the heart of the whole play is going all-in on any board (except I guess if I flop a monster).
I think this was a pretty good play but I'm gonna wait a bit before posting my defense.
curtains
03-18-2005, 09:15 PM
I don't like it at all.
citanul
03-18-2005, 09:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like it at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
Benholio
03-18-2005, 10:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The board is irrelevant for evaluating the play, since the heart of the whole play is going all-in on any board (except I guess if I flop a monster).
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, if a 'stop-n-go' must be done without any regards to the flop, then I think it is a terrible play. Just because you plan on probably pushing the flop after calling (stopping and going), doesn't mean you shouldn't have an escape hatch if the flop is really bad. Really I think its just silly not to use the information of what comes on the flop in making your decision, no matter what your plan was pre-flop.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The board is irrelevant for evaluating the play, since the heart of the whole play is going all-in on any board (except I guess if I flop a monster).
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, if a 'stop-n-go' must be done without any regards to the flop, then I think it is a terrible play. Just because you plan on probably pushing the flop after calling (stopping and going), doesn't mean you shouldn't have an escape hatch if the flop is really bad. Really I think its just silly not to use the information of what comes on the flop in making your decision, no matter what your plan was pre-flop.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you saying you think the very idea of a stop-and-go play is terrible, or that this is a terrible place for it?
I think if you're saying the former, you definitely have a leak.
Benholio
03-18-2005, 10:57 PM
No, I'm saying that ignoring the flop when deciding to follow through with a stop-n-go is terrible. Why should you confine yourself to rules like "I have to push no matter the flop!" if there might be flops you don't want to push on?
I like the stop-n-go, I just don't agree that it always has to be followed through.
ZebraAss
03-18-2005, 11:14 PM
Very interesting discussion. If you were UTG what would you be calling with. Aces with X of spades? 2 pair? Set?
I think if I had A10+ I might call in submission since most of my chips are in the pot but I wouldn't be happy about it, if I call at all.
I am not current on all of the results from the “stop-n-go” strategy so I can’t really say much. But I would imagine that you have to take into consideration what will happen AFTER, if indeed the plan is a success.
#1. you will have gained a heap of chips .
#2. your opponents are likely afraid of you, so you have a TON of momentum during the next few hands.
#3. You can pound away at the big stack while the shorties are fighting to stay alive.
The play is Gold in my book.
-Zebra
ZebraAss
03-18-2005, 11:14 PM
About the Stop-n-go...
I agree with Benholio. I dont think there should ever be a spot where you already decided what to do when you could implement an action that better takes into consideration the newly gained information(obviously the flop cards).
kdotsky
03-18-2005, 11:17 PM
If you don't push on any flop, it's not a stop and go - you're just betting that particular flop like any other hand. I think you're quite wrong to say that betting the flop no matter what it is is always wrong.
Take this for an example: button raises your big blind. The raise is half your stack. You have 88 and the best hand, but you know it's probably a coinflip. When you reraise there's no chance he's folding. Instead of putting the rest of the money in preflop, put it in on the flop (no matter what it is). This way overcards don't see all 5, and you might even get him to fold a better hand (like if he has 99 and the baord is KJx). If it doesn't work - well, not doing the stop-and-go wouldn't have worked either (pushing preflop and him calling). It's a really effective play.
Of course this particular hand is a little different, and not so obvious. But my point is just that with a "true" stop and go (you're committed, you probably have the best hand, he won't fold preflop, it's probably a coinflip), it is completely right to confine yourself to pushing on *any* flop.
ZebraAss
03-18-2005, 11:20 PM
Yes I see that. But another advantage of this "stop-n-go" theory could be that it saves you a considerable amount of chips when the board comes AKQ. You know you can't win...so why bet. Not taking into consideration the flop is absolutely absurd!
From -Adanthar-
[ QUOTE ]
With stop and goes, a lot depends on the flop texture. A raggedy board is OK, a board of KQ9 isn't, etc. I actually prefer a flop of something like Q64 - if he has a Q, oh well, but it discourages 77 from calling.
None of it is very bad, though, as long as you always take the flop texture and your circumstances into account (eg, if it's a terrible flop you still have some FE next time.)
[/ QUOTE ] (From another thread)
[ QUOTE ]
Yes I see that. But another advantage of this "stop-n-go" theory could be that it saves you a considerable amount of chips when the board comes AKQ. You know you can't win...so why bet. Not taking into consideration the flop is absolutely absurd!
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not absurd. It's the essence of what a stop-and-go is. You use this play when your stack size, the size of the pot preflop, and your cards, make you committed to the pot. You do not make the choice to push every flop, because you don't have a choice about whether to get all your chips in. Your only choice is how and when to do it. Pushing back preflop is one way, but a stop-and-go is better when you want to maximize your folding equity.
In your AKQ flop example, you focus too much on your own cards. True, the flop is very scary for your 88. But, it's just as scary for your opponent's 99 or TT.
Another way to think of it is that the size of the preflop bet relative to your stack is such that calling it will have been a mistake if you ever fold later in the hand.
I think I'm partly responsible for this confusion. My situation isn't really a stop-and-go situation, since I'm not committed to the pot preflop.
adanthar
03-18-2005, 11:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
In your AKQ flop example, you focus too much on your own cards. True, the flop is very scary for your 88. But, it's just as scary for your opponent's 99 or TT.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your opponent has a hand range you should be able to put him on.
It's all well and good if he has TT, but chances are he doesn't.
edit: I'm not saying I mind it here, BTW.
Benholio
03-18-2005, 11:36 PM
Whatever you want to call this play, it is definately a bluff. You are putting all of your chips on the line without a hand against a bad player who has shown strength at some point on the hand.
I understand that the point of a stop-n-go is to steal the pot when you don't think your opponent will fold pre-flop, but may fold on the flop. I just think that given the circumstances, you don't need to risk all of your chips on a play like that yet, and that once an ace flops, your success rate isn't going to be high enough to make money.
Since you are on the bubble, and someone is shorter than you, a break-even or slightly +CEV move here will still lose you money.
[ QUOTE ]
You are putting all of your chips on the line without a hand against a bad player
[/ QUOTE ]
I never said he was a bad player. In fact, all I said about him is that he had been playing agressively on the bubble.
Benholio
03-19-2005, 12:07 AM
Yep, I know you didn't say he was a bad player... I assumed he was, because there was nothing to tell me otherwise. What % of $22 players are bad players? 80%?
[ QUOTE ]
Yep, I know you didn't say he was a bad player... I assumed he was, because there was nothing to tell me otherwise. What % of $22 players are bad players? 80%?
[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough.
The way I see it, you're not "bad" for your level unless you would be a loser even if there was no rake. By this standard, I would guess no more than half of $20 players are bad.
Benholio
03-19-2005, 01:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yep, I know you didn't say he was a bad player... I assumed he was, because there was nothing to tell me otherwise. What % of $22 players are bad players? 80%?
[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough.
The way I see it, you're not "bad" for your level unless you would be a loser even if there was no rake. By this standard, I would guess no more than half of $20 players are bad.
[/ QUOTE ]
I just mean bad in such a way that they are likely to make bad plays, bad calls, etc. Even if they are only as bad as most of the field, I consider most of the field to be bad. (at the $20's)
Anyway, I hope my posts didn't come off as rude or anything, just saying how I feel about it~
Irieguy
03-19-2005, 02:09 AM
There's a fundamental concept of SNG strategy that preempts any value this play may have.
The decisions for the remainder of this SNG are very straightforward.
I'll let others elaborate... do you see why... and it's not even close.... /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Irieguy
[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, I hope my posts didn't come off as rude or anything
[/ QUOTE ]
Not at all,
I just hope I'm not coming off as crazy defensive.
morgan180
03-19-2005, 02:30 AM
I haven't read all the post here but I think in my gut if I go in to a hand thinking stop-n-go you still have the option of not "going" if the board is a disaster, which it is here. Any push signals to me "no flush" and my weak ace that i min-raised with is golden, and I call.
ZebraAss
03-19-2005, 02:49 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, I hope my posts didn't come off as rude or anything
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not at all,
I just hope I'm not coming off as crazy defensive.
[/ QUOTE ]
No one here should ever feel like they are being rude or crazy defensive. As long as you are encouraging discussion it is great
lastchance
03-19-2005, 04:08 AM
The point is, the guy doesn't have a stack to play postflop with in the first place. If you're going to call with a weak ace here, you were going to call preflop. This board isn't a disaster. I actually really like this board.
BTW, I don't like the stop-n-go here either. Just push the next hand.
The Yugoslavian
03-19-2005, 10:11 PM
I'd lean on UTG next hand or the hand after that.
I don't like a stop n go right here.
There is a gap concept on the bubble that applies to you but not necessarily to any opponent who shows interest in his/her hand. I think you're getting called postflop by most, if not all, of the hands that are better than you preflop.
Also, given the stack sizes and position here I think folding preflop is clearly the way to go.
Yugoslav
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.