Pocket aces early in MTT, did I play it horrible?

[scottjf8]

This was pretty early in the $20 + $2 NL tourney on Stars last night... I'm trying to really focus in these games, and feel I did the best I could with this hand.. but the flop was just terrible and I felt I was really behind... My turn bet was just stupid, I know..

Bad play or just move on? (Moving on turned out later to give me KK v. AA..)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t3390)
UTG+1 (t1260)
MP1 (t1340)
MP2 (t2750)
MP3 (t2255)
CO (t2105)
Button (t1610)
Hero (t1250)
BB (t1495)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t30, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t240</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls t210, MP3 folds.

Flop: (t540) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t150</font>, UTG calls t150.

Turn: (t840) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t90</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t1080</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t2010

[youngin20]

Your preflops raise is toooooo big. its something like 8x bb...maybe five or six times bb would be better, remember you are pretty much raising for value. The flop is dangerous, but if you want to protect, you need to bet bigger....or check. I think checking is an option...this board is UBER drawheavy....and why even bother betting the turn. I probably check the flop (if you are going to bet it, you need to bet at least half the pot, betting one fifty is a weak lead. So all in all, i dont like your play on any streets....but hey, what do I know?

[yecul]

I don't like your play on any of those betting rounds. Too large pf, too small on flop, turn bet was pointless.

[Soul Daddy]

I don't understand your bet sizes at all. What are you trying to accomplish with each?

The pf bet is way too high. You want action on this hand. With 2 limpers, a raise to t120-150 would be more appropriate. Your raise is driving out all but premium hands.

The flop bet does nothing but leak chips. He's not calling the pfr w/ air here, he's got a big pp or AK-AQ in most cases. Betting substantially less than your pfr is just weak. It's going to take a bet of at least half the pot to get him to consider laying down.

Who pushes the flop?

[schifty]

alright, we'll work on it.
1) your preflop raise is too much. What are scared of? two limpers + bb, maybe make it like 150 or even 180 cause you're out of position.
2) what is your goal with the flop bet? the biggest problem with most casual players is they don't have a plan. Maybe you have a plan in this scenario, but just praying he folds is not an option. Your flop and turn play would probably lead me to instapush a lot of hands, but even when you have a stronger holding with that board, these bets are no good. You're hope here is that villain has ak or kq, in which case you're still in trouble. Honestly, the only hands I see him folding are small pairs. This doesn't happen often, but I like a check in this partcular situation.
3) Your turn bet has no value. He's not mucking any hands that are ahead of you and you show a plenty of weakness. He now has a greenlight to bluff you off of a lot of hands. If you do make your flop bet and he flat calls, he's probably ahead- range of holdings: ak/kq/aq/tt/jj/qq. Again, what is your plan with the turn bet? It's not big enough (not even close) to block. Also, it makes no sense to represent a hand like kk here. If he flopped a set and you did have kk, you would still get all the money in. If he flopped a str8, you would still get it in. I think I'm putting you on aa here if I'm playing you, at which point I know you can't call an allin. (which probably doesn't have to factor in because I'm ahead with almost any holding at this point)
My biggest piece of advice is to form a plan. Even if your reasons for doing something are incorrect, at least it will get you thinking about your hands more.
What do you think he has? What do you think he puts you on? What will your bets accomplish? How will your bets define the hand? These are the questions that should be going through your mind when you're playing.
best of luck.

[schifty]

pushing the flop is a consideration, but only cause of the preflop overbet.
I think it accomplishes very little. Villain would probably lay down holdings that you're ahead of here and his calls have you dominated. Sets have you drawing to 6 outs...made str8 has you drawing to 3 and a runner-runner boat...qq prolly folds but is only 65-35 dog if he comes along...
A lot of your problems are solved preflop. My plan after the flop is to check and play from there. His best play is a push, but I'm not sure of the competition you're playing against. I would push almost any holding in his position. If you don't buy his bet after you check, you can shove it in there, just know that in most cases you're behind a resonable player (and even not so reasonable).
Basically, you're in a sticky spot postflop. My mindset is just to get away from it which may seem weak/passive. However, the range of hands I'm up against is not looking promising and you just don't really have enough chpis to make a respectable bet at the flop and then get away. If you do bet the flop, be prepared to get your whole stack in.

[Soul Daddy]

[ QUOTE ]
pushing the flop is a consideration, but only cause of the preflop overbet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, yeah.

You're likely only getting called by hands that beat you or AK. Maybe QQ. But I can't check the flop, and any substantial continuation bet pretty much ties you to the pot anyway.

[PokerGoblin]

OK man

The PFR is way too big. You were lucky to get any action w/ a bet like that. Had there been of couple limpers and then maybe a raise, then you can justify making a bigger bet. But with only two limpers it's more probably they will both fold to a bet that size.

On the flop you are out of position on a bad but not completely worthless board. You have a gutshot straight draw and a backdoor flushdraw to the nuts along with your overpair. What do you know about your opponent? What type of hand is he likely to have limped with, then called a huge overbet with? It's unlikely he has a big pair, or else he'd have raised with it preflop. he could have KQ or QJ, which gives him a big draw on the flop.

The flop bet was terrible, bet more or move all in... or don't bet at all, but by doing that you are essentially giving up on the hand.

Why did you bet out on the turn? You bet about 10% of the pot. What purpose does that serve?

You are most likely behind after the turn and you need to consider dumping your aces.

As far as running into AA w/ KK, that happens. There's only one hand KK isn't a favorite over.

PG

[schifty]

on checking the flop:
consider what you have to gain with a push? What hands is he calling with? What value are you getting? I think check/calling allin gives your hand much more value than pushing the flop. Pushing the flop basically gets out all of the hands that you're ahead of. Not to mention, If utg is fishy, he might check his set behind and give you the off chance of filling in the str8 or catching.
If your goal with pushing the flop is to get value from kq/ak, you need to find better places to push agains villains suspected range of hands.

[daveymck]

Hand is easier to play if you raise less pre flop, looks to me him calling you and the scary board make you scared, he could have taken the pot away from you with any two cards.

As others have said raise less maybe to 120 or so the pot is then lower so you can fire out a 2/3 continuation bet and proceed from there. The way you played it we cannot narrow down his holding at all.

I think the consideration is also on how the opponant has played, he looks like he has doubled through is he a loose player who has been active or won with a big hand and has been playing tight.

As for pushing the flop I dont see what hand he calls all in that you can beat except for AK and QQ or non broadway flush draw (some players could have called your raise with suited connectors or smaller pocket pairs.) Any other hand you are behind to a set, two pair or a flopped straight.

[yecul]

Is villain limping UTG with a high PP or AK though? I guess AQ/KQ might be possible. Really though, I think the minimum you're up against is two pair.

[Soul Daddy]

[ QUOTE ]
Is villain limping UTG with a high PP or AK though? I guess AQ/KQ might be possible. Really though, I think the minimum you're up against is two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]
I see this a lot in early position at the low buy-ins. Though usually it's followed by a reraise, so I have no clue what hand he could limp-call an 8x raise with.

[Soul Daddy]

I see your point and you're probably right. However, I think the limp-call is a pretty safe indicator that villain is fishy and will certainly call with hands that we beat.

[BPA234]

Couple pieces of info required for an objective response: table style to that point (LAG etc.) and UTG's style and quality. Your style of play to that point; what is utg's perception of your play.

Bottom line, early in a tourney you have the best hand pre-flop, at a table with several large (loose?)stacks. From your post, I get the impression that you were uncertain how to play the AA post-flop. Maybe you should just fold here? Exactly!!!! This is an instant all-in hand for you. You will probably get one loose caller and double up or get unlucky and bust out.

Unless you are an extremely skilled player, you should look for these opportunities to push all of your chips in the middle. I do.

If you want to play the hand for value and very conservatively and be able to escape from the hand post flop, then reraise 4-5BB preflop, potsize bet on flop, check/fold turn and river. Fold to any bet larger than 4xBB on river. Honestly, I don't see how you can play this way at that buy-in and I could not play the hand that way.


Here's my read on the hand as played:

Assuming you looked down at AA and said I am going to double up with this hand, I like your preflop play.

That big raise generally indicates a lesser hand that does not want a call. Maybe 1010/JJ with a push on a low card flop. I would then push the flop.

UTG limps and then calls. He may be limping with AK/KK/QQ. But, if his style is anything other than TAG, I think much less even low pp 77 or less is possible. I think he has put you on 99-JJ. If so, and he is holding KK/QQ/ he auto-pushes your pre-flop raise. Could also see push with AKs @ that buy-in.

Instead he calls. Your bet on flop is either weak or a trap. He calls. Your bet on turn is so weak that with his chip advantage he raises you allin and buys the pot. If he has the hands you are afraid of he should be trying to extract chips from you not push you out. After your turn bet he could have 33 and reraise knowing you will likely fold.

[ZootMurph]

Without any reads being given...

Let's start at the beginning... You have AA and you raise from SB to 240 when you have a 105 pot. That bet is terribly large. Too large. Most times, you're winning that small amount of chips in the pot with the best hand in the game. You WANT to play that hand, preferably against 1 or 2 players. A raise to 90 or so is perfect here.

Unfortunately, the flop is ugly. I don't see a lot of hands UTG would limp with and call a large raise. Without any reads on UTG and assuming a typical smaller buyin player, some possibilities include a pocket pair, KQ, KJs, KTs, AJ, AT, Axs, maybe even something like QJs, QTs, or JTs. So, for the most part, you are beat by most of those hands. Most hands with the Queen also have a pair, and you probably aren't going to push them out with less than an allin. So overbetting the pot here is not going to accomplish much of anything. Your bad position hurts also. So, you should take one stab at the pot here, a little over half the pot should be sufficient, about 300. If you are reraised, there isn't much you are ahead of, so folding to the reraise would be the best option.

On the flop, he just called your bet. So, you can put him on either a pair with an OESD (like KQ, OJ, etc.), two pair (KJ, JT), or a flush draw. He MAY have AQ or Q9, but it's unlikely. You are most likely ahead here. However, when the 9 hits the turn, you are ahead of very little... just the flush draw and nothing more that UTG would be likely to be playing here. Since it's early in the tournament, I'm ready to pack it away. I don't even waste a bet, and just check. The only hands you are ahead of at this point are AK (unlikely given the way it played preflop) or the flush draw. You can't bet enough to push off the flush draw without risking the rest of your stack. And, because you are most likely behind here, it isn't worth doing. A small bet will only get reraised by a better hand or you might even be bluffed at by the flush draw, and you can't call the reraise. So any more chips you put in at this point are just being given away, basically. You can call a small bet if you'd like and hope for a river Queen to split the pot... but I'd save the chips for another time.

All in all, the biggest mistake here is the preflop raise. Really was way too much, in my opinion. Also bad was the small flop bet after the big preflop raise. Finally, betting at all on the turn was a mistake, as only a hand you are losing to will call, with the exception of the flush draw, which is a small percentage of possible hands.

[Percussion]

Wow... you sure did bet that flop weakly...
To keep out draws you need to make a potsized bet... so...
definatley a possibility of going all in on that flop if you dont think he already has you beat...
The worst thing you could do was bet that small amount with a flush and a straight draw on the board, making it a good call by him to call even if hes on an inside straight draw. Small bet on turn means your scared--only do that if you hit the straight as looking weak may induce a bluff. But going all in right there by him dosen't make entirely too much sense if he hit the straight - he probably had two pair.

[Rick Diesel]

I have not read any of the other responses, but I will assume that they will all be very similar to this. I think your preflop raise was a little too much. With two limpers in front, I probably would have made it 180 to go, but I don't think that 240 is the least bit terrible.

The real mistake is on the flop. If my math is right, there is 540 in the pot after the flop, and you know have 1,010 in your stack. Any decent bet (pot-size) will be for half your chips, so if you plan on betting here you should just push all-in. If you don't want to push here, then check and play it from there. The bet of 150 was absolutely terrible.

[Roman]

[ QUOTE ]
Without any reads being given...

Let's start at the beginning... You have AA and you raise from SB to 240 when you have a 105 pot. That bet is terribly large. Too large. Most times, you're winning that small amount of chips in the pot with the best hand in the game. You WANT to play that hand, preferably against 1 or 2 players. A raise to 90 or so is perfect here.

Unfortunately, the flop is ugly. I don't see a lot of hands UTG would limp with and call a large raise. Without any reads on UTG and assuming a typical smaller buyin player, some possibilities include a pocket pair, KQ, KJs, KTs, AJ, AT, Axs, maybe even something like QJs, QTs, or JTs. So, for the most part, you are beat by most of those hands. Most hands with the Queen also have a pair, and you probably aren't going to push them out with less than an allin. So overbetting the pot here is not going to accomplish much of anything. Your bad position hurts also. So, you should take one stab at the pot here, a little over half the pot should be sufficient, about 300. If you are reraised, there isn't much you are ahead of, so folding to the reraise would be the best option.

On the flop, he just called your bet. So, you can put him on either a pair with an OESD (like KQ, OJ, etc.), two pair (KJ, JT), or a flush draw. He MAY have AQ or Q9, but it's unlikely. You are most likely ahead here. However, when the 9 hits the turn, you are ahead of very little... just the flush draw and nothing more that UTG would be likely to be playing here. Since it's early in the tournament, I'm ready to pack it away. I don't even waste a bet, and just check. The only hands you are ahead of at this point are AK (unlikely given the way it played preflop) or the flush draw. You can't bet enough to push off the flush draw without risking the rest of your stack. And, because you are most likely behind here, it isn't worth doing. A small bet will only get reraised by a better hand or you might even be bluffed at by the flush draw, and you can't call the reraise. So any more chips you put in at this point are just being given away, basically. You can call a small bet if you'd like and hope for a river Queen to split the pot... but I'd save the chips for another time.

All in all, the biggest mistake here is the preflop raise. Really was way too much, in my opinion. Also bad was the small flop bet after the big preflop raise. Finally, betting at all on the turn was a mistake, as only a hand you are losing to will call, with the exception of the flush draw, which is a small percentage of possible hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

raise to 90? No way... ~150 seems right.

I agree that 240 is too much, I bet like 300 on flop and check/fold to any other action.

[scottjf8]

All of the advice here is greatly appreciated.. As I didn't have much a read on this player, it was hard to put him on a hand... I'm really so much better live at poker (already won my WSOP trip to event #2 through local satellites) so I'm trying to work on my online game....

In a live game, I'm sure I wouldn't have raised that much PF, and might have checked the flop...

[valenzuela]

UTG is a typical guy that sees all-in being called with 44 on TV IMO. 1) He doubled up. 2)His strategy makes no sense, theres no [censored] hand u can play the way he did(only aces, and still I prefer a push with this hand)You have to push preflop if hes a WPT..If they call all-ins with TT on TV it must be right!. Now if hes not a WPT...your PFR is way too much, in low buy-ins I think you have to min-raise aces against decent players( by decent i mean a tight-weak that u can outplay by simply pressing that bet button)

[scottjf8]

After heeding many people's advice in this thread, in the $10 NL MTT tonight on Stars, I feel I played AA much better.. thoughts?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t1855)
Button (t4295)
SB (t2890)
BB (t2697)
UTG (t12022)
UTG+1 (t7550)
MP1 (t2025)
Hero (t5490)
MP3 (t12570)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t200, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t800</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls t800, SB calls t700, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls t600.

Flop: (t3300) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t1600</font>, Button folds, SB folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: t4900

[Soul Daddy]

Looks good.

[scottjf8]

Stil in this $10 7:45 on Stars, about to close in on final table and i'm the chip leader.. wow!

[AtticusFinch]

PF raise is way too big. (You want approximately 1 caller with AA). Flop bet is way too small.

This is a super-dangerous flop, but your PF overbet may actually work in your favor here, to a certain extent, as it's less likely to have been called by AQ. So a made straight on the flop is not likely. Trips is a more likely scenario, but from the way the hand was played (he pushes when a 9 falls) I'd put villain on QQ.

Exactly what hands do you think would 1) call your huge pf raise, 2) fold to your tiny bet on the flop? I can't think of a single one. You're giving villain good odds to draw at almost anything, and there are a ton of draws out there.

If you're going to bet this flop, you need to bet the pot. This is where raising too much PF gets you into trouble. It's going to cost you much more of your stack to charge villain the right price to draw, now. In this case, it's going to cost half of your remaining stack. That means if you're going to bet here, you should just push. If you're behind trips or a straight, you have outs. If you're up against a draw, he's wrong to call unless he has both the straight and the flush working.

You might also check and see what villain does, then decide. I don't have a strong preference between pushing and checking here, but you can give yourself a lot more flexibility by raising a more appropriate amount pf -- something like 120. Now you can bet the pot on the flop and get away from the hand if it looks like you're beat.

[AtticusFinch]

Much better.