Thoughts on B-roll requirements/money mgt.

[superbrawl]

Had to drop levels on SGn's last time for the first time in my short SnG career.

I probaby avg 3 tables and 15-20 games per day. I like to keep 40xbuy in in my roll. When I cash out I leave exactly 40x to play with. last week when I dropped below 30 (actually 27) I lowered my limit till I got back to 33 buy ins at original level.

I would be very interested to hear how the rest of you players manage your $$$$

[SuitedSixes]

Good post.

This isn't what I do, but it's what I am thinking about doing. I would be interested to see what other think/do.

Keep 2X the BR recommended by the AM spreadsheet (I also wear suspenders with a belt). At the end of whatever I consider a payperiod to be, remove 90% of the excess from that amount.

[Mr_J]

Well. I'm hitting the $50s now and only have around 30 buyins. I'll keep playing there until I drop to 20 buyins, at which point I'll drop to the $30s. When I drop to 20 buyins there, I'll move to the $20s etc. This means I'll probally hover between the $30s and $50s for a bit. Risk is low, and if I have a good run before a poor run at the $50s I'll never have to drop back down.

40x buyin is not necessary unless you can't afford to drop down a limit or 2. If you can't afford to drop down a limit or 2, then you are probally over your head financially??

When my BR is 30x $109 I'll try out the $109s (which I'll probally stuggle badly in /images/graemlins/smirk.gif)

I guess my aim isn't a consistent hourly rate, but to move up to the $109s as quick as possible without being a -EV player.

[deathpotato]

This is what I'm doing also, but I'm still in the $30s. Good to know that someone else is on the same track.

[Pepsquad]

I think 40X buy-in is a solid number. Depends on if that's your entire roll or if you have reserve in Netteller, etc. Moving down at 30 buy-in's would be prudent. It doesn't take a horrible run to drop 10-15 buy-in's and in my experience, when I drop below 20 buy-in's it started affecting my play - below 20 buy-in's the bad beats mattered, and you should never be playing at a level where they matter.

Pep.

[SuitedSixes]

[ QUOTE ]
Well. I'm hitting the $50s now and only have around 30 buyins. I'll keep playing there until I drop to 20 buyins, at which point I'll drop to the $30s. When I drop to 20 buyins there, I'll move to the $20s etc. This means I'll probally hover between the $30s and $50s for a bit. Risk is low, and if I have a good run before a poor run at the $50s I'll never have to drop back down.

40x buyin is not necessary unless you can't afford to drop down a limit or 2. If you can't afford to drop down a limit or 2, then you are probally over your head financially??

[/ QUOTE ]

If my goals were the same as yours, I would play identically and I think it would be fun. The 40X Buy is just to be safe. I'll be doing some living out of my roll in the near future and am just trying to come up with a safe, responsible plan.

[Mr_J]

"I'll be doing some living out of my roll in the near future"

I'm living off my roll right now, which is kinda frustrating thanks to all the outdraws I've had in the last 550 sngs /images/graemlins/mad.gif. HOWEVER, I'm not at a point though where I *have* to be making money, ie I can afford a 'breakeven' run where I'm trying out the $50s or whatever.

"am just trying to come up with a safe, responsible plan."

My plan is pretty safe, it just doesn't promise ME the consistent income that I'd get from playing comfortably within my limits. I think this is the best strategy to take, even if you have to live off your BR, as long as you can beat the next level enough to not take much of a hit in $/hr. If you have to live off your roll and don't think you can make similiar $/hr at the next level, then sure I would agree to take it slower.

[curtains]

I can't bear to play anything without 100x the buyin. Obviously this is tighter than necessary, but it just makes me feel better not to have to drop down if I have some learning pains.

[Pepsquad]

[ QUOTE ]

I can't bear to play anything without 100x the buyin. Obviously this is tighter than necessary, but it just makes me feel better not to have to drop down if I have some learning pains.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious, have you EVER gone below 50 buy-in's?! 100X just seems morbidly conservative. But I'd sure like to know if you have. I might need to re-think my 40X stance.

Pe.

[curtains]

I have on rare occasions, but very rarely. I don't mind gambling when I'm actually in the game, but before I sit down I'm a rock. Anyway it's worked out so far, but maybe I'd be doing better if I was more of a gambler?

[curtains]

btw the smaller the buyin the less you should generally have if you are a good player. 2000 dollars is a lot more easily replenishible than 20-50k.

[Mr_J]

Eh I'm about 30 buyins down from my peak profit at the $33s, and a 28 buyin drop over my last 90ish sngs ($33s anyway). Haven't even played 600 sngs yet. 40 would be too small if I played alot and never wanted to drop down. 60 is probally fine, 100 is probally just psychological??

[Mr_J]

" btw the smaller the buyin the less you should generally have if you are a good player."

Not to mention that variance will be kinder thanks to the higher ROI/ITM at lower buyins (so you don't need as many buyins)

[curtains]

Yes yes also true. I admit when I first started out I was playing $30 sit and gos on a $500 or so bankroll. I was fortunate to have a huge hot streak that made me decide to play poker more often.

Little did I know how extremely lucky I was during that rush. I could have easily just never done well, and probably I wouldn't be a professional poker player today, if I wasn't deluded by my then unbelievable luck. (I literally monied about 75% over 30-50 tournaments, it was completely absurd, I thought it was impossible to lose.)

I even posted on some forum asking whether I was the greatest player ever, and posted my stats after like 30-40 tournaments, believing that it was very difficult to acheive such results by luck. But okay, no one on 2+2 has ever seen these kind of posts before, right?

[Mr_J]

"and posted my stats after like 30-40 tournaments"

Heh.

I've experienced the highs and lows already. I fool around a bit for 40-50 sngs, then I hit 50% ROI over 75 sngs at the $33s. I plateau for 200 then I drop 28 buyins over the next 100 sngs. I drop to the $22s and hit 65% or something ROI over 90 sngs. Experiencing alot of variance early really conditions you.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to mention that variance will be kinder thanks to the higher ROI/ITM at lower buyins (so you don't need as many buyins)

[/ QUOTE ] it is still definately there. after pulling out $400 out of my role to pay some bills, i was left with $415 at the start of the day. i figured that after this evening i would be right back at $600 and able to play the 22s again by tomorrow. i am now struggling to get back to 30x buyin after a 20 buyin downswing today.

[David100]

i don't think broll is too important, if u r good and know u can win, stick to the higher levels, otherwise it will take u ages to get back up!!

Then again i am a very risky person!! i never had much of a broll, and this month i gambled on the 200s and have had a great run (my natural skill, no luck, Honest to God)!! Now i got the 30 buy in requirement.

As for broll. everytime i get to a 1500 + i take it down to 1000, and if i lose it i will put some more in. It can be good cause if u have a bad run, u can exceed your depositing limit and not be able to play. Gives u a day to relax and re coup for when u next put your money in.

David

[SuitedSixes]

I make it a point to never date a woman with a skull and crossbones tattoo*, nor will I take financial advice from someone too lazy to spell 'you.' /images/graemlins/wink.gif


*That's probably a pretty good Skipperbob story.

[raptor517]

this is quite possibly some of the worst advice i have ever heard for anyone that seriously considers playing winning poker.

[raptor517]

what i have experienced, in my oh so short poker career, is some of the most amazing swings imaginable for a winning player. granted, a lot of this has to do with the fact that i DO play 8 tables at a time, and i do play 350+ a week AT LEAST. with all this play, you can get worn out, start playing badly, etc.. and not even know it, which im sure happens to me all too often.

the bankroll that i have for the 109s is at LEAST 200 buyins. if i ever drop below 100 i will seriously consider quitting poker forever. the worst downswing i have experienced has been around 50 buyins. the thing is, with a 200 buyin bankroll, 50 sucks, but you can still play at the same level, and not have to drop down and sacrifice hourly rate to rebuild.

to be a truly successful professional player, i would say that bankroll management is one of the most important aspects. the best players in the world couldnt play 10-20 on a 1k bankroll. the best players in the world couldnt play 215s on a 5k bankroll. the statistical variance involved in poker doesnt allow for it.

ok, so i havent said a whole lot really in all this writing.. but im really tired and on an amazingly average run, so bear with me.

as for curtains, he is VERY wise to be a rock before he sits down. this is some of the best advice given here today. be a rock before you sit down, but dont be afraid to gamble once in the game. if you have an adequate bankroll, you will never be scared money. you cannot play winning poker playing scared, so keep that bankroll up /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

[SuitedSixes]

Again, I'm probably not taking financial advice from a non-capitalizing teenager, HOLLA, however. . .

The key part to that post is the peace of mind that comes with being over BRed. I currently have over 150 buy-ins. I worry about alot of things, but going broke isn't one of them.

[raptor517]

hey now, this non-capitalizing teenager COULD be slightly intelligent and have the ability to make bajillions at poker, ya never know /images/graemlins/wink.gif and for the record, im only a teenager for a mere 15 months more. holla

[Apathy]

The other great thing about having a huge bankroll is that if you want to play a few big multis, or some other non SNG poker investment you don't have to worry about it crippling you SNG BR.

[pokerlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
you cannot play winning poker playing scared

[/ QUOTE ]

very true and something I have learned the hard way back when I started in July, playing $10s with $50. One or two unlucky beats, and not good times. Then again, I once won 4 out of 5, which makes me the greatest player ever, so bankroll management is inapplicable to me /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

But seriously, I am rocking $500 roll on Stars and playing $5's and $6 turbos (one and two table tourneys) until I wrk off the WSOP bonus, then back up to $10s. I also mix in the occasional $20 if a few consecutive bad beats knock me out, as I feel my luck is bound to change - kindof like doubling your blackjack bets after a real crap run.

[David100]

[ QUOTE ]
I make it a point to never date a woman with a skull and crossbones tattoo*, nor will I take financial advice from someone too lazy to spell 'you.' /images/graemlins/wink.gif


*That's probably a pretty good Skipperbob story.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably a safe idea not to take advice from me /images/graemlins/smile.gif

David

[David100]

[ QUOTE ]
this is quite possibly some of the worst advice i have ever heard for anyone that seriously considers playing winning poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think that is fair. This is just a very risky approach. Each to their own. i have been able to move up a lot quicker than i would otherwise have been able to. If you (Not 'u' anymore... will you trust my advice now? ;o) ) have the skill, why not give it a go and gamble a bit. Poker is gambling don't you know?

David

[Schwartzy61]

I'm new here and my best search efforts were fruitless. So I was wondering what is this AM spreadsheet you speak of?

[microbet]

The general advice for the bankroll required for moving up a level has to do with estimating what would be a realistic, but bad drop of buyins in that level. For example, if you consider 30 buyins a very bad run then you should have a 30 buy-in bankroll for that level. Add some more if you are conservative, less if you are not.

But, if you are conservative you probably are not going to watch your whole bankroll run out during a bad run without dropping down to the previous level.

I don't always exactly follow the rules I set for myself, but I come pretty close and what I'm going to do for moving up levels is set my fallback number at something like 40 buyins at the previous level and my moving up requirements at something like 30 buyins. So, for example, to move up to the $33s I'll wait until I have a bankroll of 30 x $33 + 40 x $22. I think.

To me there is a pretty binary situation. Either I make enough playing poker that I am free to not do any work that I don't like, or poker is a hobby where I might have some fun and make a little money. The most likely thing that will keep me from achieving the first option is blowing a bankroll and deciding that it isn't worth putting in the time. I don't think a lot of you will care, but there are probably some of you in the same situation.

The number of buyins in the example above will obviously go up as (if) I move up because a bad run will be worse as ROI goes down and there is less incentive to move up later as it seems a living can be made even at the $33s if you play enough tables. (I'm sure some people could make a living at much lower levels, but not with a family in California)

Also, I doubt I will ever absolutely depend on poker as my sole income. I would just like to be free to not take work that I don't particularly want to do.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
I make it a point to never date a woman with a skull and crossbones tattoo*

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
this is quite possibly some of the worst advice i have ever heard

[/ QUOTE ]

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
I make it a point to never date a woman with a skull and crossbones tattoo*

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
this is quite possibly some of the worst advice i have ever heard

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. If you haven't dated a pirate woman you don't know what living is. Shiver me timbers indeed.

[raptor517]

believe me, if ever there was a gambler, its me. i have gone broke so many times moving up too fast. if i had a bad run in 55s, i would start playing 215s to get it all back faster. this is NOT the way to maintain cash flow. if you look at poker as a definitive source of income, bankroll management is key. im not saying there is no place for you method, because i have definitely used it many times over. however, to be a consistent winner and to look at this as something more than a hobby, your method simply will not work.

[David100]

[ QUOTE ]
believe me, if ever there was a gambler, its me. i have gone broke so many times moving up too fast. if i had a bad run in 55s, i would start playing 215s to get it all back faster. this is NOT the way to maintain cash flow. if you look at poker as a definitive source of income, bankroll management is key. im not saying there is no place for you method, because i have definitely used it many times over. however, to be a consistent winner and to look at this as something more than a hobby, your method simply will not work.

[/ QUOTE ]

i will post my results at the end of the year /images/graemlins/smile.gif

David

[raptor517]

lol, well in that case, i look forward to it. good luck