Hand from tonights Trop $150 No limit tourney..

[Mike Gallo]

Hi everyone,

I played in a $150+20 MTT at the Trop in Atlantic City.
Every players starts with T5,000, and the blinds start at T50-T100. Every level lasts 20 minutes.

I had this hand during the 5th level of the tournament. The limits were $150-$300 and an ante of T50. I built my stack to just under T15,000, I had T14325. I have more chips then all of my opponents except for the button. The button moved to our table from a busted table and brought T18,000 with him. He did not play a hand until he played this one.

The player UTG + 1 had raised from that spot for my big blind UTG+2 for my small blind the last three times I had to pay the blind bet. He had raised the last 3 hands in a row. He open raised with any pocket pair,any two suited broadway cards and with most suited Aces. He could lay down to a reraise. He had about T7,000.

The early middle position player tended to play very wildly and by the seat of his pants. He had also just moved to the table and he had about T8000. He played almost every hand since joining our table.

I had the position of the big blind for this hand. UTG+1 open raised to T600 two players folded and the player from early middle position reraised to T1200 everyone folded to the button. The button raised to T3000.

I looked down at A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif what should I have done?....

A thought I had before I took action, the first raiser raised with a lot of hands and could have most hands I would have a coin flip against.

The next raiser could have realized this player had light raising standards and tried to pick him off with a reraise steal attempt. The button who had a lot of chips could have realized this also and went for a resteal of the steal with any two cards. 3k did not put too much of a dent in his stack.

Results and more comments and thoughts later.
Poster MLG factored into my final decision.

[curtains]

I would almost always fold here. People aren't usually that crazy. Ak is usually trash against a raise, reraise and 3bet in NL.

[Mike Gallo]

I would definitely fold here. People aren't usually that crazy.

What range of hands do you think I am up against?

[Mike Gallo]

one more detail...

The button mucked 10 10 face up.

[curtains]

I dont know, but you will be allin against AA or KK much more often than youll be allin against AQ or AJ.

[curtains]

I mean I don't know the players so it's hard to say for sure that folding is correct, but I'm having a hard time imagining a lineup where I would reraise AKs there.

[Mike Gallo]

[ QUOTE ]

I mean I don't know the players so it's hard to say for sure that folding is correct, but I'm having a hard time imagining a lineup where I would reraise AKs there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the information on the players. I did not have much respect for their raising standards.

[curtains]

You said the button just moved to your table and reraised 2 raisers after not playing a hand.

[Mike Gallo]

Yes, he could have enough wisdom to realize the perfect resteal position and went for a win right there by making a $3k raise.

[adanthar]

So you pushed and the button folded? And he showed his tens as an indication of what a fantastic fold he'd just made to a four bet all in?

That's great, but I think you got one of maybe two hands that fold, as opposed to the four other ones that call this and probably bust you.

[Mike Gallo]

That's great, but I think you got one of maybe two hands that fold, as opposed to the four other ones that call this and probably bust you.

So you pushed and the button folded?

Did I say I pushed?

Would you have folded?

[Mike Gallo]

I dont know, but you will be allin against AA or KK

what about JJ or QQ.

[LethalRose]

This is entirely based on reads of your opponents, having said thats it difficult to put myself in your situation.

range of hands here id say are AJ+, AA, KK, QQ, JJ
maybe even a smaller PP if one of the players is short stacked and has decided to push to a reraise.

The kind of players you are describing sound like they overplay hands they *think* are awesome, hands like AJ, KQ, any suited cards are like gold to them - hands I used to think were great cards no matter how much betting is going on..ive learned a lot since then.

The only hands you are significantly underdog here are AA and KK. Seeing as though you have an A and K, even less possibility someone holds these 2 hands.

I think theres too much money in the pot to pass this opportunity up, and push. Im guessing you see another AK and QQ.



my gut is you folded because of some pearl of wisdom by divine intervention i know nothing about or whos concept i can barely grasp.

[Sam T.]

Mike,

One of the things that isn't quite clear from your post is how long the button had been at the table. Did he know that the first two players had light raising standards? (Given the cards he folded, it looks like he did.)

Also, you noted that UTG+1 did a lot of raising - was the min-raise typical?

You've got a big stack, you are (not to blow smoke up your ass) probably one of the better players there, and three players showing strength. Your observations about the looseness/restealing is a good one, but even the loose raisers get AA from time to time. I think I'd let this one go.

My two cents,

Sam

[marrek]

This is a fold IMO.

Yes AKs is normally a strong hand, but not against a 3 raises.

For your AK to be best here you are ASSUMING that the 3rd player

1. knows that the 1st raiser is weak
2, knows that the 2nd raiser knows the 1st raiser is weak and is himself trying to resteal with a weak hand
3. knowing all this, he is re-re-stealing with yet another weak hand

Now, your only play is to blow everyone out of the pot with a 9k to all in reraise, pot committing your self to an AKs when you have a large chip count mid way through a tourny, after 3 pre flop raises.
( This seems insane to me!)

The most likely scenario is that one of them actually has a pair and will call, leaving you with a coin flip or severly dominated.

This is definately not the time to make a play with AK.

And even if it is the best starting hand, there is no gaurantee that it will hold up. Why risk chips in a bad situation when you are very comfortable?

Marrek

[MLG]

SOP for me is to fold AK here, but I can imagine a table dynamic where I would push. Glad to see that you're thinking about me /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[Simplistic]

i guess another tidbit is where the tourney is at in terms f players left, players that get paid etc.

[CardSharpCook]

I really don't mind calling here. I don't like pushing - it seems very likely that the button calls and your tourney life is at stake. Call. I believe this action will lead to two other calls and you'll be seeing a 4-handed flop with AK. Flop an ace and there is only one hand that is beating you (the case AA). You've got 15K in chips, you've got room to play. Should you call, flop TPTK and one of the two earlier players flops two-pair or better, paying them off won't break you.

Remember, there are just 6 hands you are afraid of. Flop a pair and that is reduced to 4 or 1. When you have a big stack like this, you can afford gambles like this. Given the table dynamic, I think it is an especially good move. I do not like pushing here.

...and yes, I do fold AK occasionally, but not in this situation.

CSC

[MLG]

calling is a bad play out of the blinds here, especially given that you aren't closing the action.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
calling is a bad play out of the blinds here, especially given that you aren't closing the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but he is effectively closing the action. The two raisers left to act know that they do not have the chips to force either you or the button to fold. They will not go all-in. Or they will go all-in a small percentage of the time. Should they do so, I still don't mind calling one of their stacks, but I'm folding if button moves in over top. Again, I don't mind letting go of 3000 chips, but I see a hand developing in which there is 12000 in the middle, I have AK, and likely have at least one player covered and willing to call for all his chips when we hit.

CSC

[MLG]

you are calling 3 raises with a hand that will only hit the flop 30% of the time (less now since 1 of your Aces is likely out). Given the large field you have to check fold the times you miss. So, you really dont have the odds to call hoping to hit. Plus, in these situations AK really has crappy implied odds since underpairs rarely pay you off.

[Arnett23]

I think you got 2 plays, push or fold, you don't want to flat call and let the 2 early position players in. I don't see why you would want to risk busting on a probably coin flip when you are probably short outs with the 2 early position players especially if you are as sam said one of the best players in the tourney.

Only time I wouldn't fold is if my read was so good on all three players that I knew they all had crap.

[Chief911]

Mike,

So the initial raiser means nothing. The reraiser "flies by the seat of his pants" meaning he *could* be trying to isolate, or he really could have a big hand. He only min-raised. Now the button screws things WAY up, because he has NOT played a hand yet (You need to tell us how many hands he's been at the table for please).

As noted, the UTG raiser could have almost any 2 paint, an Ax, a pair, etc. He also could have a real hand. It can happen to anyone.

Seat of pants guy raises. Probably is trying to punish the constant raiser. Not sure his raise means a whole heck of a lot.

Now, the button comes in for 3k. If this does not happen, pushing is a great option, as is simply calling the reraise and seeing a flop, and letting them push their $$ to you. But he raised, and he makes it a huge pot.

As much as I'm a gambler, I think you have to fold here. You are too good a player to risk this amount of chips where you may be way behind to AA or KK, especially to the one stack who can hurt you.

I think as an alternative, if you dont feel the two initial raisers are strong, is to call the 3k and take a flop. But there are a lot of problems with this approach, including if the button truly has AA or KK, and you hit an A or K on the flop, where are ya?

I think I'd very painfully fold.

Nick

[Mike Gallo]

Guys,

Thanks a lot for all of the responses.
Before I give my action, I will give my thought process at that time.

I had more then half of the field left. The last few times I cashed in a tournament I made it to the later rounds short stacked. I usually find myself short stacked because I develop a fear of gambling. I thought in this spot, I would see one opponent with Jacks and another with AK or AQ. The button did not concern me at all. For those who asked, he had sat at our table for one full orbit. He did not sit there for a long time. As I said, his raise could have been because of the size of this stack. I have restolen off a steal with 77 and I felt this player had the capability of making this play.

ok...lets recap action...
I had the position of the big blind for this hand. UTG+1 open raised to T600 two players folded and the player from early middle position reraised to T1200 everyone folded to the button. The button raised to T3000.

I never look at my cards until action gets to me. The table had a chatty nature and a lot of coffee housing took place. Sometimes I will play the part and coffee house a bit myself. After the button raised, I looked at him and said, "when did you get here," everyone laughed and I said, " I still havent looked yet. For some reason from his response I did not detect strenght. I consider reading players one of my overlays.

I looked down at the AK and knew I had a tough decision. I either needed to fold or to go all in. I could not call. I would be out of position for the rest of the hand and if I flopped an A or a K I would get no action except for someone (who as unlikely as I found it)had AA or KK.

If I called, a very good percentage of the time player 1 or player 2 will go all in before before action gets to me.

Yes, I must raise or fold. "Mike you must raise or fold." I thought."You should really fold, why gamble?" Then the demons in my head started talking, they said "Everyone needs to win with AK to advance. I cannot win if I fold in close gambles" I thought of Sklankys advice on AK. Of course it did not really apply to me all the way because I did not iniate the raise. I had three raises before me.

I thought,"should I flip a coin if its this close." I know someone has a pair, do I feel like gambling. I know I do not have the best hand right now. I just know it. Someone has QQ or JJ someone has an Ace and someone has nothing at all. I put the button on the nothing the player utg+1 on Ax or a lesser pair..player 2 on jj...maybe qq... Maybe I have the worst of it with AK. Ok if the first raiser has an Ace now I only have 2 aces to help me against the second players pocket pair. Since he mini raised so often, and raised big with a real hand I did not consider him to have a real hand. I figured he would fold. Player two I had no read on. He looked at his cards and he considered them best no matter what. He played a pair of 6's earlier the same way. He always looked like he thought he had a strong hand when he played a hand.

Do I finally gamb00le? My standard play would be to fold. However my standard plays have not gotten me to a final table with chips. I have made it into the money short stacked the last few times I cashed in a tournament. If I lost the hand to everyone but the button I would have a little less then half my stack. If I lost to one of the other two players I would now have a little below average.

I consider my game strong short stacked so that idea did not concern me......
...................arrrrggggggggggg.the demons got meh..
....................I announced.........
.......................RAISE...................... ..........
...and I went all in. Everyone but the button called, he folded 10 10 face up. Several players asked if I had AA. I said.."no I am in trouble, I only have one A." Player 1 turned AK off suit player 2 had QQ. Player 2 won with Queens full of 7's. He hit his Q on the river to add insult to injury.

Props to one poster who knew exactly what the other players had.

I called lurker poster Fred G Sanford and asked for his input. He leans towards folding in that spot also. He considers it weak, however he thinks he would fold.

I did consider folding, then I thought, thats kind of weak and before I knew it I was all in. Haaaa----Yaaaaa !!

Thanks again to everyone that reponded. I appreciate all the help and input.

[Mike Gallo]

As I stated, however at this table, players snowed a lot with hands like 8 3 and 8 5.

I do agree against typical opponents I should fold. Thats what made this so hard for me.

[Mike Gallo]

So you pushed and the button folded? And he showed his tens as an indication of what a fantastic fold he'd just made to a four bet all in?

Pretty much.

That's great, but I think you got one of maybe two hands that fold, as opposed to the four other ones that call this and probably bust you.

He would not have tangled with the only stack that could hurt him without at least AA or KK. Since I had an A and a K, I did not put him on either of those hands. Even if he calls with JJ or 10 10 , I am only a coin flip behind.

[Mike Gallo]

I think theres too much money in the pot to pass this opportunity up, and push. Im guessing you see another AK and QQ.

Props to you for getting the exact hands. I owed you a drink if I ever see you in AC.

The kind of players you are describing sound like they overplay hands they *think* are awesome, hands like AJ, KQ, any suited cards are like gold to them - hands I used to think were great cards no matter how much betting is going on..ive learned a lot since then.

Exactly why I tapped. These players severely overplayed hands.

[Mike Gallo]

One of the things that isn't quite clear from your post is how long the button had been at the table. Did he know that the first two players had light raising standards? (Given the cards he folded, it looks like he did.)

He had just arrived at the table, however he played with the player who sat in the middle position. They came from a busted table together.

Also, you noted that UTG+1 did a lot of raising - was the min-raise typical?

Typical of hands like 22-1010. Atypical of big hands. He must have switched his play to either get action, or conserve chips. He had raised a lot of his chips away by having to fold to a reraise, or an over bet on the flop.

You've got a big stack, you are (not to blow smoke up your ass) probably one of the better players there, and three players showing strength

Thanks for the kind words. You are correct on all counts /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Mike Gallo]

This is a fold IMO.

In most spots, correct.

Against this lineup I did not consider it so cut and dry.

1. knows that the 1st raiser is weak
2, knows that the 2nd raiser knows the 1st raiser is weak and is himself trying to resteal with a weak hand
3. knowing all this, he is re-re-stealing with yet another weak hand

Correct again.

Now, your only play is to blow everyone out of the pot with a 9k to all in reraise, pot committing your self to an AKs when you have a large chip count mid way through a tourny, after 3 pre flop raises.

I agree. I confess, I had temporary lapse of reason.

Good points on all fronts.

[Mike Gallo]

SOP for me is to fold AK here, but I can imagine a table dynamic where I would push. Glad to see that you're thinking about me

This dynamic made me want to tap.

I have no problem folding AK. I posted about folding it and you explained to me in the post why I should have not folded. That factored into this decision because I considered the players to all have raised light.

Players open raised and reraised with a lot of hands. Players tried snow raises to resteal a steal. Players "played the player not the cards" at this table.

I considered worse case scenario I would have to go heads up against QQ or JJ.

Against typical or sane opponents I would have folded.

[Mike Gallo]

If I call here, I will have a very tough time playing the rest of the hand. I need to raise or fold. A large percentage of the time a hand like 88 will fold to an all in but call the buttons raise. If I can knock out a player who I know will fold a hand like 88, I must knock him out of the equation.

I never considered calling.

[Mike Gallo]

Good thought process.

I almost folded. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Rocco17]

Mike, I am a long time lurker and I enjoy your posts. This one was very informative. Many of you seem to have very thorough thought processes at the table. I don't always take the time to analyze situations to the extent that I should. Just wanted to come out of the woodwork and say thanks. I am trying to take my play to the next level, need all the info I can gather.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
So you pushed and the button folded? And he showed his tens as an indication of what a fantastic fold he'd just made to a four bet all in?

Pretty much.

That's great, but I think you got one of maybe two hands that fold, as opposed to the four other ones that call this and probably bust you.

He would not have tangled with the only stack that could hurt him without at least AA or KK. Since I had an A and a K, I did not put him on either of those hands. Even if he calls with JJ or 10 10 , I am only a coin flip behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think not putting him on one of those *automatically* is a mistake. I've busted out of two of my last five tournaments that way (both low buyins, fortunately, but that's beside the point.) Yeah, there's less ways for him to have either, but it happens.

More to the point, if I am reading this correctly you made a huge misread on the button. "He wouldn't have tangled with [you] without AA-KK?" You went all in ahead of him, he got two callers *and folded TT face up to congratulate himself on the spectacular laydown*. Tens. Hell, they weren't even suited.

MAYBE he folds JJ here, although my thought process when I said 'two that fold, four that call' was more like 'he folds TT and *possibly* AK, if it's not soooooted'. But given the way you just described this fold, he lays down QQ here roughly 0% of the time.

Moreover, I'd never expect a player in a tournament like this to fold *any* of these, especially if the other two guys managed to throw away their QJo's. I've seen some (not too many but some) similar laydowns made online in a 215 MTT or 535/1065 SNG...but in a live 150? Isn't that equivalent to maybe a 50 dollar Party multi? Even if it's the rarefied heights of a 100 buck FT tourney you still won't find anybody who folds jacks or better in the whole field.